Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

Being "offended" by the word is a learned response, based on not-knowing, rather than it being a word of denigration.

The term only works if you accept the concept of gender identity.

For obvious reasons (which have already been explained on this thread) many women find the concept of enforced gender identity offensive, particularly when it is linked to language they need to describe rights and to analyse inequality.

We are still waiting for an explanation of gender identity.

" There is no other definitive word to describe all non-trans people"

The definitive words to describe "non trans people" are Woman (adult human female) or Man (adult human male) no "cis" required.

"'Trans people' don't have a Right in law to use these spaces. That's the truth."

You can believe the EA 2010 doesn't give trans people the right to use correctly sexed/gendered spaces. Fact is UK law works on precedent, and there is very little, but what we have is this. So until overturned trans people do indeed have the right to use the spaces that match their acquired sex/gender. And in practice every trans person I know has always used the correct spaces, for longer than I've been alive, and will continue to do so.
www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

What gender do you refer yourself as?

Trans women are women, and that doesn't stop you from being women.

On what objective basis are transwomen women?

What is a woman?

[quote BaronessWrongCrowd]@bigotryisbad I think you need to read back on the threat. None of my posts have been deleted, promptly or otherwise. I believe that it was PurpleHoodie whose post was deleted not mine.

If you are going to slander someone then at least make sure that you get all your facts right otherwise you will end up with egg on your face.

So I believe l you now owe me an apology for posting untrue things about me. [/quote]
I have quoted your deleted post and shown that this element of your statement is not true.

I stand by my assertion that your initial post is transphobic and I have reported it as such.

If MNHQ disagree, then that is not a position for which I need to apologise.

When was the last time anyone asked your gender? Or maybe that should be 2years + ago...

TransRightRCool I do not mean to cause offense by asking, I am genuinely interested in understanding the thought process.

If transwomen and women have different sexes and genders, what quality/charicteristic do you feel the two groups share to make them both the same?

SevenSilverrings for your lovely boy.

@ool0n thank you for the links.

I repeat what I said. I support people to live the lives they choose. I support children to have the freedom to express themselves in what ever way they like growing up without judgement, categorisation or medicalisation. Those things are enough.

oo10n

A woman has clearly told you she finds the use of the term 'cisgender' offensive. So do I. I also find 'menstruator' 'vagina person' 'cervix owner' all equally offensive. Your response is that using these terms is 'easier' for you.

To get respect, you must give respect. And you are demonstrating in spades that you are not willing to do that, it's 'easier' for you to continue to use terms that women have told you clearly that they find offensive.

This is the heart of the problem. It's a fundamental difficulty in accepting that women are full human beings, will full human rights just like you. And when a woman says she does not want to be insulted by being called cisgender, you must respect that if you want to get respect for your preferred terms of address as well.

I'm finding this thread very confusing, and I'm going to repeat the plea to please, someone, define gender identity. How do I identity my gender identity?

In a minute someone will come along and suggest that if you don't feel that you have a gender identity that's because your gender identity aligns so well with your "assigned sex at birth" that you won't have thought very deeply about it which is why you haven't noticed that you have one and that just reinforces the fact that you are "cis"

Thanks @bigotryisbad. I wasn't accusing you of misogyny to be clear. You may well be right about some aspects of systematic bias - it's doubtful that any organisation entirely avoids it I'd have thought and Mumsnet is used overwhelmingly by women and has a largely female staff so I'm sure we can't claim to be free of it on this issue and on many others. That's one of the reasons we genuinely like having a big and diverse crowd contributing to conversations.

ool0n

Trans people wish to be known by their pronouns and their chosen sex.

And some kick off when they are not referred to as such.

Yet I get called cis which is a term that I find offensive.

So why do trans people get to no only be called what they want but also to label other people something that they do not want to be called?

What is the difference between gender and personality?

Mimmymum must be absolutely delighted that Mumsnet is now trending after her Soreen post.

All those thousands of hours spent on Twitter slagging off Mumsnet are finally worth it!

This is the heart of the problem. It's a fundamental difficulty in accepting that women are full human beings, will full human rights just like you. And when a woman says she does not want to be insulted by being called cisgender, you must respect that if you want to get respect for your preferred terms of address as well.

YY

@bigotryisbad as posted further down, I saw the deleted post. I do apologise as I hadn't seen it, however, it was about a biscuit. Jammy Dodger in fact. It was probably seen as an attempt to derail the thread. Sadly, it was nothing nefarious just a biscuit

I still don’t understand why TRAs spend so much time arguing with women about whether we think TWAW.

Why not the (very probably) 99.9% of heterosexual men who most certainly do not think TWAW? Or they might say they do on Twitter for woke cookies, but they aren’t entering in to a sexual relationship with one any time soon.

I’m sure Soreen will be if they have some cakes to sell.

This is the heart of the problem. It's a fundamental difficulty in accepting that women are full human beings, will full human rights just like you. And when a woman says she does not want to be insulted by being called cisgender, you must respect that if you want to get respect for your preferred terms of address as well.

Exactly.

@TransRightsRCool

What gender do you refer yourself as?

Sorry someone had asked about gender identity, I was trying to help them but I'm not used to using this website. This was aimed at helping them identify their gender identity, I wasn't asking anyone their actual gender lmao. Sorry for the confusion!

OK, so.
Trans people are humans and as such have human rights.

They do not have the right to be right, even about themselves. Humans believe all sorts of things about themselves that turn out to be wrong when tested against reality. Believing sincerely that I am a brilliant scientist does not deliver me a physics PhD or a professorship. Even though science ability is a thing that really could be viewed as a spectrum.

Gender identity means different things in different contexts but broadly it is stories we tell ourselves about how we fit into social constructs. Stories we tell ourselves are heavily influenced by what the social construct actually says, culture, stereotypes, peers and teachers in younger life. They can change over time.

However, because of the dependence of this concept on stereotypes, which everyone knows are problematic, gender campaigners have gone further to posit an entirely independent culture independent innate unchangeable "gender identity". Thus the old sex is overwritten by appearance and stereptype preference turns into sex is overwritten by gendered souls as manifested in whatever someone says about themselves.

It doesn't make sense as an argument as children must somehow learn which label to put on their gendered soul, and the only available mechanism is stereotypes and appearance.

Gender campaigners switch at will between stereotypes-and-appearance and gendered-souls, depending on which they think will make a given argument stronger. So we can't challenge anyone in the changing room because gendered-souls. But we have to sort by gender not sex because stereotype-adoption (picture of convincingly passing TM).

And actually, we don't. Neither gendered-souls nor stereotypes-and-appearance are the reason for segregating certain things by sex, the differences between sexed bodies are. Even if some concept of brain-sex could be demonstrated and tested for, the 100m dash should still be segregated by sexed bodies, because sexed body differences are the reason there is a women's category in the first place.

If anyone can point to anything I have said that is misogynist, I will very carefully consider it. That could have been me... I made a comment, having responded to your previous post, that seen from my perspective you asserting some of the points you did could be seen as misogynist!

I didn't say you were I was careful to be more polite that you have been to some posters! Because that is how women mind their language here!

@bigotryisbad also please can you point out the transphobia in my first post? What is transphobic about my words?