Mumsnet says Trans Rights are Human Rights!

[ool0n]

I always assumed Mumsnet were not the biggest supporters of trans rights, given the stories about them. But this is a good statement on Twitter, "of course trans people exist, and of course trans rights are human rights"
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367071394870276099

Also I thought using terms like cisgender or cis were against the rules, this isn't true either -
twitter.com/MumsnetTowers/status/1367080005193318401

So can I get a trans rights are human rights, trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary people are valid!

@LadyPeachums

Cis is a scientific term, in Latin, as is trans. Cis meaning "this side of" and trans meaning "the other side of". If trans is a valid prefix as used in any context, so is cis. "Cis" is the best word for describing all people who are not "trans" because it doesn't discriminate against partial cis positions (for example, non-trans women only) but instead, describes all in that group (for example, all the men and all the women and people who do not identify as trans). There is no other definitive word to describe all non-trans people. Being "offended" by the word is a learned response, based on not-knowing, rather than it being a word of denigration. (Some people might be new to this understanding of 'cis', others are not new to it, but remain offended out of preference.)

What's wrong with 'women' and 'transwomen'? Then when you are talking about 'women' you know you are talking about 'non-trans' people and when you say 'transwoman' you know you are talking about trans people. Simple.

I am not going to be pushed into a subset of my own sex, by people who aren't even of my sex.

From what I can tell gender identity cannot be defined and certainly there has been no provision of any scientifically based assessment for gender (people cant even agree what it is).
My identity is not informed by gender. I am strong willed, conscientious, caring, hard working, value intelligence and kindness, and love to read. My identity is impacted by my sex as it means I have had to undergo biological experiences that a male wouldn’t. I do not align with a gender, and given the things I identify above I suspect it would be impossible to assign me one.

for Rowan. Thank you for clarifying.

Ladypeachums cis as a descriptor only works on the basis that everyone has a gender.

Some do, some do not. Some feel they were assigned one at birth, some dont.

I personally can not be cis, or on the same side as a gender, as I do not have a gender.

Why should gender identity (subjective, nebulous) trump biology (objective, nebulous) in matters of policy and law, where the salient metric is bodies?

Can anyone take a stab at that q?

@bigotryisbad I think you need to read back on the threat. None of my posts have been deleted, promptly or otherwise. I believe that it was PurpleHoodie whose post was deleted not mine.

If you are going to slander someone then at least make sure that you get all your facts right otherwise you will end up with egg on your face.

So I believe l you now owe me an apology for posting untrue things about me.

Trans women are not women. Transmen are not men.

Everyone’s rights are human rights.

Women are women. Men are men.

Transwomen are transwomen. Transmen are transmen.

What is a 'female gender identity'? Anyone???

The High court is considering today a situation in which rights asserted by some trans people may be found to be in conflict with women's rights.

Do you consider it right that rapists are housed with women who have experienced sexual abuse?

And to return to these questions - How do you define a woman's gender identity?

Why do you get to define gender identity and to force that on those who reject it?

If you wont define gender identity how can you claim it exists?

If you try to evade that by saying it is whatever I choose my gender identity to be then why do you insist I must have one and it must not have changed since I was an infant?

What does I am a man" mean to you apart from I wish to tell women not only that they must always agree with me on everything but who they are?

@Xanthangum

Malt loaf gets stuck in your teeth I find. As do sprouts, if you've over-boiled them.

Yeah sprouts are nasty. And bitter.

There is no other definitive word to describe all non-trans people. Not really the Gotcha! you might have imagined.

Women are women
Men are men.

Being the very epitome of the words men and women they need no additional label.

What is the difference between gender identity and personality?

What I hate the most....my young teen son, creative, probably gay (he thinks), individual, kind, strong, feels he can’t wear a skirt if he fancies it (he’s really into clothes) because it’s just too much hassle and ‘everyone wants to stick a label on him’.
He’s not trans, but he gets called it, old he’s in denial, or repressed, and he actively has to push back that he’s just happy being himself and go into an explanation of fashion and drama and what he likes (his personality). The pressure on him and his peers is insane to fit in a box, to wear a label. In what way is that a good thing? Why can’t we just be individuals being ourselves, and expressing our personality? Why must that be gendered?
I’m old. In the 70s I had a boxy hair cut and wore primary colours and dungarees. I was interchangeable with my siblings of both sex and in photos you can’t always tell our sex (until we’re teens). Surely the best thing for my kid, or trans kids, is just to accept our lovely diversity without the labels? Feminism has worked so so hard to get rid of the oppression of ‘gender identity’. Why are we going backwards? toys are back to pink and blue packaging, Lego is even gendered, as are bloody nerf guns. My boys female friends are under insane pressure to be a certain type of female, or to ‘perform female’ by looking and acting certain way, and posting those images for approval. No wonder some of them feel so utterly confused and angry. Two or three years ago they were little kids.
We’ve backtracked so far in a couple of generations. (In some ways). Labels only ever confine. They don’t free us. Gender labels are a constraint and an oppression and they always have been. That’s why feminism fights so hard against them. They haven’t done women any favours. They aren’t currently doing my son any favours. I really worry for him. He’s not a label or an identity, he’s an individual.

I wont repeat my post Rowan because - rules.

But yes. Using "cis" is just as bad as using insert racial slur was what I said. Lest anyone not have screenshot that, or get the wrong idea.

Absolutely, it's your identity, I am a man, that's me asserting my gender identity as I define it. If in some weird transhumanist prank I woke up tomorrow and was in a body that is typically considered "a woman's" I wouldn't identify as a woman. I'm a man, and that identity is separate from my body's characteristics.

Why would you interpret your identity as being a man? What characteristics does your identity have that are shared among all the group known as 'men'? How are you different from a woman?

[quote RowanMumsnet]@bigotryisbad Well, we obviously don't agree the opinions expressed here are transphobic (any more than we think your opinions are misogynist) because if we did we'd delete them.

One post - that, to reiterate, was deleted within three minutes - used a racist slur to make an ill-advised point about the legitimacy of using contentious language in a discussion about language. It was deleted immediately for the racist slur but it honestly feels like a very big reach to use that (on a thread of 250+ posts and counting) to characterise the response of MN users overall as 'racist'. Again - we'd ask you to do this in good faith. Because we are.[/quote]
If anyone can point to anything I have said that is misogynist, I will very carefully consider it.

I would note, however, that immediately equating expressing support for trans rights with misogyny is exactly the kind of systematic bias for which MNHQ is so often criticised.

I am a feminist.

I am a parent.

I have 2 DD and posted here for many years before the constant hate aimed at trans people became intolerable.

@DreamEvenBigger

Trans women are not women. Transmen are not men.

Everyone’s rights are human rights.

Women are women. Men are men.

Transwomen are transwomen. Transmen are transmen.

This is biologically accurate.

As for the OP, it's like "big whoop". This is not revelatory news to anyone who regularly reads this board (rather than just sees screenshots from here on twitter).

I should point out I do not deny that transgender people’s identity is not informed by their gender expression. Just that I and many others identity is not informed by it. I respect transgender people and their experiences but that doesn’t mean I can be labelled cud-gendered as I don’t believe I have a gender identity.

I wont repeat my post Rowan because - rules.

But yes. Using "cis" is just as bad as using insert racial slur and both are as bad as each other, was what I said. Lest anyone not have screenshot that, or get the wrong idea.

@LadyPeachums

Cis is a scientific term, in Latin, as is trans. Cis meaning "this side of" and trans meaning "the other side of". If trans is a valid prefix as used in any context, so is cis. "Cis" is the best word for describing all people who are not "trans" because it doesn't discriminate against partial cis positions (for example, non-trans women only) but instead, describes all in that group (for example, all the men and all the women and people who do not identify as trans). There is no other definitive word to describe all non-trans people. Being "offended" by the word is a learned response, based on not-knowing, rather than it being a word of denigration. (Some people might be new to this understanding of 'cis', others are not new to it, but remain offended out of preference.)

The way I see it there are a few definitions of cis, (in a sex/gender context).

1 - not-trans: I'm not really in the habit of describing myself as what I am not, so this definition doesn't sit right with me.

2 - sex matches gender identity: I don't believe in a gender identity, so calling myself cis on this basis makes no sense. How can my sex match a gender identity I do not have?

3 - having a sense of dysphoria: this is the only definition I'd say qualifies me as cis, but I'm pretty sure this definition is now deemed transphobic? So would that make me transphobic using it to call myself cis?

I'm finding this thread very confusing, and I'm going to repeat the plea to please, someone, define gender identity. How do I identity my gender identity?

Oh I see the post now, I do apologise! That was a post about a biscuit and it could be seen as an attempt to derail the thread. Nothing nefarious I'm afraid.

Trans women are women, and that doesn't stop you from being women.

Trans men are men.
Nonbinary people exist (hi).
People with cultural genders exist.

Posted twice for posterity