AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

[IWillSqueakAgain]

I know I’m on fwr

This is about SINGLE SEX changing rooms. Not mixed sex, not toilet stalls and so on.

I’m struggling to think of my wording here so thought I’d ask other women who know biology their opinions. I don’t want to put it in aibu because I think too many would deliberately misread it and pile on.

On some of the recent threads a few have brought up single ‘stalls’ and how this should be the norm everywhere.

I think the use of lesbians eying up women or women being scared as they were victims of women and so on are easy to identify false equivalencies to reframe or misdirect the arguement, it’s not difficult to see that bs for what it is. I feel like the idea we should all have single cubicles for all changing is also a form of this misdirection, but I can’t quite articulate it fully and wanted others thoughts.

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false. It’s not just one cubicle for one woman, because we need ones for mother’s with young children and so on, and setting up the space to cater for this means way fewer woman can get changed at the same time.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

I think any adult or child who wants to charge in a cubicle should, their dignity and choice should be catered for also. I’m not saying any single cubicle only spaces should change to have some communal women’s changing areas by any means.

But there are plenty of women’s changing room that are set up to have communal areas as well as some cubicles also. This isn’t new and in my experience is the norm still.

While this is common sense use of space I think there’s knock on benefits of this set up.

Girls grow up in a world that at best portrays women’s bodies as air brushed, enhanced, flawless male fantasy. Often younger generations are exposed to a pornified image of how women should look naked.

Surely it’s not a bad thing for girls/teens/young women to see that women have normal bodies. That we have stretch marks and wobbly bits just like they do. That the image of how women should looked that’s pushed down their throats isn’t at all representative of actual women and that they don’t need to beat themselves up for not looking like those images.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on. Rather than teen girls hitting puberty being humiliated by flooding in public or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds isn’t it a good thing they’ve already seen that this is just part of having a woman’s body and not something us other women feel ashamed of or should be hidden away.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

There’s plenty circumstances in life when women being comfortable being semi naked around other women is beneficial. Giving birth, learning to breastfeed, when we might need personal care with toileting or bathing either due to age or other medical circumstances. It’s a good thing if it’s normal for women to be comfortable with other women before we get to these stages, growing up getting changed around other women is part of that. Not saying it’s the only part of that or that it should be pushed on anyone uncomfortable, but it’s just part of every day life for women ime.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this correctly, but I feel like the idea single cubicles are the perfect solution overlooks the fact that not only are plenty of women fine with communal single sex changing facilities, but that there’s actually a positive effect from them on how we view our bodies and their functions.

Does this make sense to other women here? Is there a better way of explaining this?

Yeah, I know what you mean. I am a woman and the only exposure I have had to elderly female bodies is in swimming pool changing rooms as a child. I mean, obviously older women don't owe anyone a look at their partially unclothed bodies! But at least I have seen what "normal" looks like at all ages. And not only that, but that the women were getting on with it without a fuss, not ashamed (nor should they be) despite their bodies not looking like those of 20-something lingerie models.

Communal changing still sounds pervy and is a throw back to WW2.

I'd prefer the cubicle option for privacy as I'm not as in shape as I used to be.

Well of course there are occasions when nakedness is on display, but where I have the choice I'd rather avoid seeing others naked. Perhaps I'm just prudish. I don't know. Personal choice. I'd prefer just more provision of stalls so there are no need for queues.

I can see your point but some women being fine with communal changing doesn't mean that the other women have to be.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on.
Is your last name Yaniv? (not envy!)

I remember communal changing rooms in Miss Selfridge about twenty years ago. It's a lot easier to abuse that set up as everyone has a phone in their pocket now to take covert photos. You see that happening in communal changing rooms for gyms and swimming pools. I think that single cubicles are the way forward, there are other ways for girls and young women to be educated about what a normal woman's body looks like.

I don’t like communal spaces for a few reasons

1. Because as long as communal space is available, there will never be enough private provision to meet user demand
2. Because private spaces are almost always accessed via the communal space which means people have to risk seeing users undressed in the communal space. Privacy goes both ways, both wanting not to be seen nude and not wanting to have to see anyone else nude.
3. The idea of normalizing women’s bodies is somewhat ableist. Things like scars, non-contagious skin conditions, and other deviations from the norm can invoke real revulsion and even fear in other women. As an example, It’s awful to have to explain to a group of women that the horrifying red marks all over your body aren’t contagious and don’t present a risk if you get in the pool with them.
4. Women who choose to use the private changing spaces when communal are available are sometimes not considered part of the group or even openly criticized.

Like I said I think there should always be options of separate cubicles also, and I’ve never known any communal changing rooms not have several shoe cubicles also.

I don’t think there is anything ‘pervy’ about women’s bodies. That’s the point.

I agree, its often surprising to see what real women look given the very unrealistic version we see on screen, magazines etc. so I think its positive, especially for young women. Having said that, I will nearly always pick a cubicle if there's one free! So I think its good to have both.

I don't mind a communal changing room.

I don't think your point fully holds though. The etiquette is very much NOT to look close enough that you'd see someone else's tampon string, stained pants, saggy tits, scars etc.

Idrather feel free to read my post history & you’d see how stupid that sounds.

I hit puberty young and flooded loads. I was humiliated and ashamed when I was young but actually when friends all caught up & it became inevitable that they’d have the same happen it helped normalise that for me. Helped me less uncomfortable with my bodies needs. I remember a friend at school asking me to check the back of her trousers when we were outside, and not anywhere she could get to toilets, and realising that fuck it’s not just me who feels like their leaking when they aren’t was a huge relief.

Every gym I've ever been to has a communal changing room. With maybe two or three curtained off cubicles.

So caters to most tastes.

And, in my experience, most women are fairly discreet about getting changed. And then drying their hair, or doing their make up with maybe a hello to someone else they know.

All fairly low key.

And I agree, all shapes and sizes which does normalise normality!

My public swimming pool has one of those changing villages arrangements.

You are in a fairly roomy cubicle, where you can quite easily get changed. With cubicles either side.

However, there is a small communal room off to the side which is just for women changing. But no privacy from other women.

It is preferred by quite a few women. The sense of 'collective femaleness', I guess. It's also always cleaner. Work that one out.

Not for me, I value my privacy.

Tofu my post is about single sex communal changing rooms. Not anywhere men will there filming.

I’m not arguing we should have them to educate women about women’s bodies, I’m saying there’s normal unintended benefits from women seeing that the shaved, skinny, big breasted, flawless skinned image in porn isn’t the norm and that can have a knock on with women learning not to be ashamed of their anatomy.

I’ve know adult women who are nurses who can’t even say the word vagina, or who stressed themselves silly when they had new borns timing everything around feeds to be home so they could hide away to breastfeed because they were too uncomfortable with their breasts being used for their actual function in public. I’ve done personal care jobs for elderly women who were deeply ashamed they needed personal care, when really we all might need that some day and it’s completely possible to have dignity maintained around other women- because we all deal with the same stuff. I’ve known plenty new mums horrified at their ‘disgusting stretch marks and saggy stomachs’ when actually most of us mums who look like we have our flat pregnany tums back still have plenty extra skin and stretch marks.

I'm not particularly bothered about communal changing, and regularly get changed in the open air on the beach/in the carpark.

However, I see plenty of people with less than perfect bodies in swim suits, without having to see them get changed. When I am in the changing room my goal is to get in and get out. I really don't want to look at other people when I'm faffing around with my pants, and I assume and hope other people feel the same. This is why I am happy to get changed in a communal space.

I have had two children, and many smear tests and have never assumed I was being judged.

I accept that other people have different views, but if I really thought that people were interested in my sanpro, I would be using a cubicle.

or who stressed themselves silly when they had new borns timing everything around feeds to be home so they could hide away to breastfeed because they were too uncomfortable with their breasts being used for their actual function in public.

I was comfortable breastfeeding because I observed other women breastfeeding without showing their breasts. I wouldn't have even attempted it if I wasn't confident that it was possible to breastfeed in public without showing any skin.

Sure you don’t look closely mild, but it’s inevitable to see stuff around us. That’s precisely why the idea of men in women’s changing rooms isn’t ok, because they’d witness these things that are normal to women.

Both should be options if possible. There are benefits to communal space - it can provide for more people with a limited space available. It also limits the opportunity for men to place voyeuristic concealed devices because they don't get access at all. The cleanliness of communal female areas tends to be better than individual cubicles that both sexes can access. The provision of sanitary bins is more reliable. The presence of other women can be a safety lifeline. Better to send a young girl into a communal female space than into an isolated cubicle with men using cubicles either side. A woman who has retreated to the loos to avoid a man can find other women prepared to flank her as she leaves safely.
All of this works when female-only places are properly preserved for our own benefit.

But mostly, because if some women simply want a communal female only area, that's good enough for me, and no authority should get to abolish the right of consenting women to share communal space. If we want to freely associate that way, who is to deny that.

I sort of agree with your OP, but I'd think it'd need to be part of a general cultural shift and I've no idea how to do that. Normal female bodies in this country seem to be something people are ashamed of in a way (unless they meet a male definition of perfect in which case they are fetishists). Of course cubicles should be available but I wish we lived in a country where women could change together without embarrassment or revulsion.

That’s precisely why the idea of men in women’s changing rooms isn’t ok, because they’d witness these things that are normal to women.

A man or woman in a changing room watching me get changed wouldn't see anything they wouldn't see me do on a beach.

I think Barracker is right - women have a right to say no, and that should be the end of the argument. However, I don't think it's helpful to say that people should use communal changing rooms, because so many people find them off-putting.

You don't need to see people naked to see their different bodies. Any pool or beach you will see the full range of female (and male) body shapes in their swimming costumes.
Having said that, I'm not against communal changing rooms. I've always been a bit shy, so use a cubicle if I can.
I have no desire to see naked bodies, young or old.

I'm so sorry @IWillSqueakAgain, I've literally never witnessed a woman referring to a "tampon string hanging out" and the only person I've ever seen write that is Yaniv.

I still don't think that woman have to be fine with communal changing if they don't want to be, and the resolution to the issue is not to increase communal changing.

No one is judging merrymouse, that’s the point.

None of us watch other women while we are getting changed, but none of us get changed with our eyes closed either or our eyes shamefully averted.

Although that’s true for adults. Little kids def watch. My girls certainly wouldn’t have discreetly averted their eyes when young and they take in way more than we realise, if the offshoot of that is now their teens they know fine well that most women don’t look like the flawless, shaved, cosmeticly augmented images that come at them from all angles that’s not a bad thing. Even better if they are comfortable with their own bodies and ok asking for sanpro when they need, because they’ve seen how normal this stuff is for plenty of women, not just their mum at home.

I completely agree and I think it really does improve self esteem to see real female bodies and realise that yours is no different. Yes there should be cubicles too but I think communal us fine for most people. I go to a pool with a large communal area and cubicles. Most of us prefer the space of the big room and the chit chat!

Merry I said very clearly that no one should use communal changing rooms if they don’t wish and that everywhere should always have plenty seperate cubicles also.

Please don’t misrepresent what I’ve said.

I kind of get what you mean, but I think a lot of those benefits occur in any female only spaces anyway, particularly inter generational ones, and not necessarily only those spaces where we get naked. Of course, they are under threat too, everywhere we look

@IWillSqueakAgain
Tofu my post is about single sex communal changing rooms. Not anywhere men will there filming

I didn't say that you were suggesting communal changing rooms for both sexes, and neither am I. Photos still get taken and posted online, even in single sex communal changing rooms. Not for titillation, but because people can be cruel about bodies that do not fit the norm.

I do agree with the PP about ableism. I'm a wheelchair user. I don't want my body to be on display any more than it already is, for the simple fact that I'm in a wheelchair and people love to stare. I imagine that many woman would choose to use the single cubicles, which would be limited in number due to space, so I'd have to wait even longer than usual to use a changing room. I don't think the benefits of communal changing rooms outweigh the negatives.