AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

[IWillSqueakAgain]

I know I’m on fwr

This is about SINGLE SEX changing rooms. Not mixed sex, not toilet stalls and so on.

I’m struggling to think of my wording here so thought I’d ask other women who know biology their opinions. I don’t want to put it in aibu because I think too many would deliberately misread it and pile on.

On some of the recent threads a few have brought up single ‘stalls’ and how this should be the norm everywhere.

I think the use of lesbians eying up women or women being scared as they were victims of women and so on are easy to identify false equivalencies to reframe or misdirect the arguement, it’s not difficult to see that bs for what it is. I feel like the idea we should all have single cubicles for all changing is also a form of this misdirection, but I can’t quite articulate it fully and wanted others thoughts.

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false. It’s not just one cubicle for one woman, because we need ones for mother’s with young children and so on, and setting up the space to cater for this means way fewer woman can get changed at the same time.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

I think any adult or child who wants to charge in a cubicle should, their dignity and choice should be catered for also. I’m not saying any single cubicle only spaces should change to have some communal women’s changing areas by any means.

But there are plenty of women’s changing room that are set up to have communal areas as well as some cubicles also. This isn’t new and in my experience is the norm still.

While this is common sense use of space I think there’s knock on benefits of this set up.

Girls grow up in a world that at best portrays women’s bodies as air brushed, enhanced, flawless male fantasy. Often younger generations are exposed to a pornified image of how women should look naked.

Surely it’s not a bad thing for girls/teens/young women to see that women have normal bodies. That we have stretch marks and wobbly bits just like they do. That the image of how women should looked that’s pushed down their throats isn’t at all representative of actual women and that they don’t need to beat themselves up for not looking like those images.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on. Rather than teen girls hitting puberty being humiliated by flooding in public or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds isn’t it a good thing they’ve already seen that this is just part of having a woman’s body and not something us other women feel ashamed of or should be hidden away.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

There’s plenty circumstances in life when women being comfortable being semi naked around other women is beneficial. Giving birth, learning to breastfeed, when we might need personal care with toileting or bathing either due to age or other medical circumstances. It’s a good thing if it’s normal for women to be comfortable with other women before we get to these stages, growing up getting changed around other women is part of that. Not saying it’s the only part of that or that it should be pushed on anyone uncomfortable, but it’s just part of every day life for women ime.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this correctly, but I feel like the idea single cubicles are the perfect solution overlooks the fact that not only are plenty of women fine with communal single sex changing facilities, but that there’s actually a positive effect from them on how we view our bodies and their functions.

Does this make sense to other women here? Is there a better way of explaining this?

I fully agree. I am from a nordic country and growing up the showers at the swimming pool were communal, as were saunas (women only of course). I remember sitting in saunas with naked women of all ages, seeing so many natural bushes, stretch marks, ageing and dropping bodies, tampon strings etc and I think it was very good in terms of normalising what women's bodies really look like. Of course the culture in the UK around nakedness is completely different, and I respect that. In the nordics though this is very non sexual and not creepy.

I also sometimes go to a local lido here in London which happens to have a communal changing room and optional cubicles. Again, many women, and especially older women, seem to be very comfortable getting completely naked in the changing rooms, which I find liberating and a reminder that actually my body looks ni different from anyone else's, despite what instagram tells me.

Never forget that for many people this isn't really about single sex spaces it's about morally mandating transsexuality out of existence

It's really not. Not everything is about transpeople.

It's about women's and girls' rights:

• which are legally established by UK law; *to establish their own strong boundaries;

While women & girls live in a culture based on the routine normalisation of child sexual abuse, rape, and the sexualisation of female bodies, without our consent then women and girls must be clear about their rights and boundaries out of necessity.

They wanted trans people gone and a lot of the campaigning was about things like getting rid of trans healthcare to prevent transition. Those people are still about and many of them like Sheila Jeffries are at the heart of the gender critical movement.

Nice bit of deflection & misreading there.

In my gym, a lot of women choose to do their hair and make up while dressed only in their underwear. I'm not sure why (def not my choice). I assume for practical reasons, like not getting water or make-up on their clothes. I suppose if the area were unisex, many of them would opt to get fully dressed first. They might consider that to be an inconvenience.

There aren't any women who want to do their hair and make up in front of random men, either.

I fully agree. I am from a nordic country and growing up the showers at the swimming pool were communal, as were saunas (women only of course).

SorryPleaseTryAgain

How would these women feel about these single-sex spaces becoming unisex?

If they were to feel uncomfortable, do you think it would be acceptable to change the entire culture of the country to have cubicle-only changing areas and private saunas (or swimsuit-only saunas)? How do you think that would go down?

These questions hadn't really occurred to me before.

There aren't any women who want to do their hair and make up in front of random men, either.

Datun, I agree, and I can't imagine most men would particularly welcome the experience either. There are always lots of angry letters to the Metro written by men who are annoyed by women doing their make-up on the Tube. They consider it something women should do in private.

I wouldn't go that far, but I would prefer not to do my hair and make-up in front of random blokes if I had the choice.

I don't know how men would react to a man putting on make-up on the men's changing room.

Struggling with acronyms.
I don't know what fwr is.
It took me 4 days to work out what AIBU was.
As for the abbreviations used for describing partners, I thought loads of women on here were dating the same guy.

It's just as well there aren't any toilets in here!

Wotapolava from what I understand, this board used to be known as Feminism and Women's Rights.

It's been Feminist Chat for as long as I've been here, and I agree that refs to FWR are confusing.

I grew up swimming a lot, and I still swim often, lockdown permitting. The pool I grew up with had single sex communal changing rooms and I think it probably was a good thing to see a range of bodies. Swimming cossies may not hide everything, but they still do smooth things out. It was more comfortable than the changing rooms and showers at school, which I think was mostly down to space - a full class of girls in a smaller school changing room was crowded.

Where I swim now, we have a changing village with cubicles - singles, doubles and family cubicles. I imagine this makes the use of space far more efficient than having two large, single sex areas. There are also communal changing rooms by the large pool, which is mostly used by swimming clubs (and possibly schools; I don't swim when they do.) Showers are poolside, but there are some cubicled showers. Most other pools I've been to in recent years, whether public or hotel, have had communal, single sex changing. I don't mind whether it's cubicles or communal - I've usually had space to be a bit spread out as I change, which is fine. Most people ignore everyone else except for questions about how do these lockers actually work, then?

I don't mind changing on the beach, either, but I usually go later in the day when the worst of the crowds have gone, and I am more concerned with the wind and avoiding getting sand in my pants than anything else.

Weirdly, while I'm fine with being naked apart from a towel with moments where I swap between towel and cossie where I'm possibly completely naked, in a swimming pool changing room, the thought of shared changing for clothes shopping horrifies me. This is not logical, because I am definitely not totally naked when trying clothes on, (when I am at points when changing at the pool,) but nonetheless, if I don't have a private cubicle I won't be trying things on and probably won't be buying.

I assume that for leisure centres etc making decisions about all this, there's a large economic factor. Cubicles take up more space overall, but you don't need separate changing rooms, only separate showers/loos if you have a changing village. There is presumably a certain area where it becomes more cost-effective and you can cater for more users in that space if you go one or the other - many smaller gyms/pools have communal changing because if they changed to cubicles only, they could only have 4 or 5 people in at once.

@EdgeOfACoin

Wotapolava from what I understand, this board used to be known as Feminism and Women's Rights.

It's been Feminist Chat for as long as I've been here, and I agree that refs to FWR are confusing.

Thank you.

Should be called PeoplesNet really then.

The Website name is a well known brand though.

many smaller gyms/pools have communal changing because if they changed to cubicles only, they could only have 4 or 5 people in at once.

This is my experience. You could quite easily get a couple of dozen of women all finishing a class at the same time and heading off to change/shower.

This is not logical, because I am definitely not totally naked when trying clothes on, (when I am at points when changing at the pool,) but nonetheless, if I don't have a private cubicle I won't be trying things on and probably won't be buying.

It's completely logical - the potentially embarrassing part of buying new clothes is that you have no idea how they will look or whether they will fit.

@merrymouse

This is not logical, because I am definitely not totally naked when trying clothes on, (when I am at points when changing at the pool,) but nonetheless, if I don't have a private cubicle I won't be trying things on and probably won't be buying.

It's completely logical - the potentially embarrassing part of buying new clothes is that you have no idea how they will look or whether they will fit.

Good point.

Guards and CCTV outside then?

Businesses don't really want to employ any more people than they have to.
Unless these things are enforced in law.

Quick question. I won't derail.

Are there any trans who don't oppose to what Alison Bailey is doing with the LGB alliance?
Your input could be useful.

I'm guessing there is opposition for reasons of exclusion.
The LGBT alliance will still exist.

I'm a bit late to this, but one of my close friends ascribes her recovery from an eating disorder that had plagued her throughout her teens and twenties to going to live in a country where it was commonplace for all women to go to the ladies' sessions at the local hammam.

She said, for the first time, she was in an environment where she didn't feel judged for her body shape, and she saw just what everyone else looked like - - what was "normal", if you like, at lots of different ages.

@Packingsoapandwater

I'm a bit late to this, but one of my close friends ascribes her recovery from an eating disorder that had plagued her throughout her teens and twenties to going to live in a country where it was commonplace for all women to go to the ladies' sessions at the local hammam.

She said, for the first time, she was in an environment where she didn't feel judged for her body shape, and she saw just what everyone else looked like - - what was "normal", if you like, at lots of different ages.

Why do people need to conform to a group to validate themselves?

I'm not oppose to joining groups but it can often become a gang mentality and seek to oppose other sectors in society. Then it can be a numbers game threat " We will take ourselves somewhere else - to your loss."
I think Stonewall may have outplayed them on that and they don't like it.

Look at the way society is being kept apart now.
How long before all groups are completely pulled apart.
As for any real reason for doing it - will never be admitted.

As somebody who identifies as 'individual' it won't be my loss.

And don't get me started on those who like to attack and then blame it on a personality disorder.

Polava, I see that as the opposite of conforming to a group. The woman was freed from the need to conform to an unrealistic standard by seeing there was no 'standard'- people come in all shapes and sizes.