AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

[IWillSqueakAgain]

I know I’m on fwr

This is about SINGLE SEX changing rooms. Not mixed sex, not toilet stalls and so on.

I’m struggling to think of my wording here so thought I’d ask other women who know biology their opinions. I don’t want to put it in aibu because I think too many would deliberately misread it and pile on.

On some of the recent threads a few have brought up single ‘stalls’ and how this should be the norm everywhere.

I think the use of lesbians eying up women or women being scared as they were victims of women and so on are easy to identify false equivalencies to reframe or misdirect the arguement, it’s not difficult to see that bs for what it is. I feel like the idea we should all have single cubicles for all changing is also a form of this misdirection, but I can’t quite articulate it fully and wanted others thoughts.

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false. It’s not just one cubicle for one woman, because we need ones for mother’s with young children and so on, and setting up the space to cater for this means way fewer woman can get changed at the same time.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

I think any adult or child who wants to charge in a cubicle should, their dignity and choice should be catered for also. I’m not saying any single cubicle only spaces should change to have some communal women’s changing areas by any means.

But there are plenty of women’s changing room that are set up to have communal areas as well as some cubicles also. This isn’t new and in my experience is the norm still.

While this is common sense use of space I think there’s knock on benefits of this set up.

Girls grow up in a world that at best portrays women’s bodies as air brushed, enhanced, flawless male fantasy. Often younger generations are exposed to a pornified image of how women should look naked.

Surely it’s not a bad thing for girls/teens/young women to see that women have normal bodies. That we have stretch marks and wobbly bits just like they do. That the image of how women should looked that’s pushed down their throats isn’t at all representative of actual women and that they don’t need to beat themselves up for not looking like those images.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on. Rather than teen girls hitting puberty being humiliated by flooding in public or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds isn’t it a good thing they’ve already seen that this is just part of having a woman’s body and not something us other women feel ashamed of or should be hidden away.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

There’s plenty circumstances in life when women being comfortable being semi naked around other women is beneficial. Giving birth, learning to breastfeed, when we might need personal care with toileting or bathing either due to age or other medical circumstances. It’s a good thing if it’s normal for women to be comfortable with other women before we get to these stages, growing up getting changed around other women is part of that. Not saying it’s the only part of that or that it should be pushed on anyone uncomfortable, but it’s just part of every day life for women ime.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this correctly, but I feel like the idea single cubicles are the perfect solution overlooks the fact that not only are plenty of women fine with communal single sex changing facilities, but that there’s actually a positive effect from them on how we view our bodies and their functions.

Does this make sense to other women here? Is there a better way of explaining this?

@ancientgran,

Yes. They should have guards at cubicle stations.

For sure.

You wouldn't take a shit enmasse in a room would you?
The fights over toilet roll will make for interesting disputes!

Puts me in mind of this:

I don’t care what it fills you with jj.

This thread is about women’s spaces.

Go start your own thread for your topic of third spaces if you feel the need. It’s not what fwr is for though.

Surely this applies even more to third spaces. So you might say it's for men to sort out, but you appear to object to this kind of redevelopment based on cost and space.

Third spaces already exist in many public facilities for the benefit of people who care for somebody of the opposite sex. You really are inventing problems where they don't exist.

Jj knows that. Jj already read my description of the three spaces my gym has. Jj gets filled with something if it’s not all about jj all the time.

[quote ChestnutStuffing]You wouldn't take a shit enmasse in a room would you?
The fights over toilet roll will make for interesting disputes!

Puts me in mind of this:

[/quote] LOL!

That paper flapping!

As mad as it sounds, to me there is a different atmosphere in a female only spaces. not mad at all it’s a real thing & particularly noticeable in conversation I think

ancientgran I grew up swimming in a similar sounding pool & was over joyed to find a similar one in my 20’s until the idiot Glasgow Council shut it down.

My preference would be single sex spaces with individual cubicles surrounding a central area so that people can have the choice & there is space for drying hair/putting your boots on or whatever outside of a wee cubicle. (I would consider those 8 & under to be eligible regardless of their sex)

@Idratherberude

As much as we all love another installment of JJ and the whataboutery, wasn't the wonderful idea of Stonewall applying for dosh for the purpose of specific spaces for trans people suggested yesterday? Go on JJ, stop faffing about on here and get on with it.

You think Stonewall should pay to redevelop Marks & Spark's changing rooms or Duncan Ballantyne's gyms? Okay ... the whole 'why not campaign for third spaces' is looking more and more insincere by the minute.

Don't worry I'm off now, it's been an interesting insight into what might happen if trans people campaigned for third spaces as we are continually told to do by GC people.

There’s a similar pool to that description near me too. It’s lovely. But it’s freezing, the showers are miles away from the changing cubicles, there shared showers only so no chance of a decent wash, the toilets are by the shower so your fucked if you need to pee once your back in the changing cubicle. There’s only one cubicle with baby change factilties. None are wheelchair accessible. It’s not at all easy to take more than one young child there even with a second adult and the hairdryers and mirrors are out in the open, and most just don’t seem to bother using them because of that.

It’s an absolutely beautiful building, but not terribly practical for a lot of other reasons.

You think Stonewall should pay to redevelop Marks & Spark's changing rooms or Duncan Ballantyne's gyms?

I’m really not understanding the problem here. Organisations like M&S already spend lots of money on accessibility because of a combination of legislation (lifts) and demand (parent and child parking). Many people need third spaces and because of this they are already common.

I agree with so much of what you say...as seeing normal women doing normal bodily things like changing and showering and breastfeeding help growing girls not be ashamed of their changing bodies.

This below is a wonderful solution:

My preference would be single sex spaces with individual cubicles surrounding a central area so that people can have the choice & there is space for drying hair/putting your boots on or whatever outside of a wee cubicle. (I would consider those 8 & under to be eligible regardless of their sex)

I get what you mean and I agree. I think being in communal swimming pool changing rooms and seeing some older women naked in the women's showers was very beneficial for me when I was a young girl. I'm in my 20s and I don't have body image problems, not ashamed of pubic, leg or underarm hair, stretch marks or cellulite. I did get more self conscious as a teen but that's naturally gone as I got older. My mum found it surprising how all the girls in my high school class refused to shower after PE. I would have preferred it to be socially acceptable to use the shower in the changing room after getting sweaty honestly but I didn't feel able to if I was the only one showering.

My mum is the unselfconscious type I could chat to while she was in the bath like you are as a mum OP, it was incredibly helpful. She didn't shave or wax and I think she passed that lack of shame in her natural female form to me and I'm very grateful. It definitely helped to combat the harmful effects of being exposed to pornography, you will be definitely helping your girls feel comfortable in their bodies as they get older. I don't think it will be beneficial for girls if all communal female changing areas are removed, especially not in this awful world where girls are so often exposed to the filmed rapes of thousands of young, potentially surgically altered prostituted/trafficked women.

The choice of cubicles is absolutely fair but communal female gym/pool changing/showers are really not comparable to changing with males whatsoever and we all know that. Muslim women and girls can use communal changing and swimming facilities as long as they are female only, just like they can take off hijab around nonMuslim girls and women but not males.

I've never seen a communal changing room in a clothes shop, I assume we're talking about existing swimming pool and gym communal changing.

We still avoid the swimming pool with only mixed sex cubicles, mainly because they always smell of pee! Communal single sex one with a choice of some cubicles seem cleaner and I think safer.

No, I'd rather change in a cubicle. Who would actively choose to change in front if strangers given the choice? And to be honest, I can't remember the last time I saw a communal changing room. Probably Mk One when I was about 13 and that got changed to cubicles.

I get the wish for the normalisation of women's bodies and the variety. However, I'd feel communal changing only would mean some women were put off exercise, and there are enough health issues in this country that would be lessened by greater exercise that we should not put obstacles out there. I'd also question whether or not for some women there are reasons of culture, heritage or religion that mean they want cubicles.

I think being in communal swimming pool changing rooms and seeing some older women naked in the women's showers was very beneficial for me when I was a young girl

I'm still amazed at so many posters are prevented from seeing what a body looks like if it's covered by a swimsuit or a bikini.

I'm also not thrilled at the prospect of being some sort of specimen on display for young women struggling with the idea that all bodies are different. I don't actually have a hang up about my body image and never have. I simply don't want to be seen naked by or see other naked people.

Muslim women and girls can use communal changing and swimming facilities as long as they are female only, just like they can take off hijab around nonMuslim girls and women but not males.

Many Muslims consider any form of public nudity sinful and so cannot use communal changing rooms. Some believe that Muslim women should only unveil in the presence of other Muslim women. Banning communal changing rooms would allow these women to access those services. It's wins all round really, except for those who want to be naked in public spaces or to look at other naked people.

Completely agree about normalising women’s bodies. When I was 21 I used to go to a swimming pool where there were loads of very elderly ladies who would spend ages in the communal showers, and then sit and have a chat in the buff, completely unselfconscious. I was young, fit, very slim, and hiding under a towel. One day I decided to get over myself and stop hiding and I’ve never looked back. I am now nearly old enough to serve as an example to others.

Also it’s just easier if you don’t have to keep concealing yourself while you get dried and dressed. You don’t have to deliberately wave your tits around but if someone glimpses one it’s no big deal.

I totally get what you mean OP. I think seeing women's bodies in use without being sexualised or self-conscious is really very powerful.

However, I see that is a very unpopular view.

I wonder if our bodies have become so sexualised that we are afraid of being naked among other women. Naked women abound in our culture but they are in porn and advertising. The normal female body has become invisible. And the female body no longer belongs to us. We have allowed it to be snatched by the porn makers and pimps. To be commoditised.

That's terribly sad. I think we've lost a connection between women that is absolutely profound.

Unsurprisingly, as far as I know men's communal changing rooms are still very common.

@IWillSqueakAgain

There’s a similar pool to that description near me too. It’s lovely. But it’s freezing, the showers are miles away from the changing cubicles, there shared showers only so no chance of a decent wash, the toilets are by the shower so your fucked if you need to pee once your back in the changing cubicle. There’s only one cubicle with baby change factilties. None are wheelchair accessible. It’s not at all easy to take more than one young child there even with a second adult and the hairdryers and mirrors are out in the open, and most just don’t seem to bother using them because of that.

It’s an absolutely beautiful building, but not terribly practical for a lot of other reasons.

At the pool I went to the showers we at either end of the pool, one end male the other end female so you weren't near men when you showered and obviously you kept your swimming costume on, it still felt safe though as there was always a member of staff there. Maybe I had a strong bladder in those days as I can't remember exactly where the toilets were.

Why it it hard to take more than one child? Are the cubicles small, the ones I'm talking about were quite roomy so when I had my first two kids I often took them and sometimes their cousin and it wasn't a problem, there was a bench at the back of the cubicle and I just stood them on it and it was like a production line , dry 1, 2, 3, main clothing 1, 2, 3 then shoes and socks 1, 2 and 3. The poor mother gets dry and dressed.

I wonder if our bodies have become so sexualised that we are afraid of being naked among other women

No. That seems a very odd idea. Most naked bodies , male or female are ugly. I don't want to see them.

The normal female body has become invisible

Well aside from what is "normal" by which I assume you mean glamorous /young/Hollywood that is a ridiculous exaggeration. Try looking around you every day, whether clothed in streets, shops or offices or almost naked on beaches or swimming pools -the vast majority of women are "normal"

Indeed given the numbers who are unhealthy overweight having less "normal " bodies might not be a bad thing.

The changing cubicles opened straight out onto stone floor a couple of feet from the actual pool. Wrangling two toddlers there simply wouldn’t be safe. Rarely people take young kids there anyways, there’s no shallow end, metal steps are the only way in (so not accessible for anyone in a wheelchair either) and it’s horribly cold most of the time. It has beautiful high ceilings with a glass ceiling/massive sky light or something, so if peak summer it gets beautifully warm mid day, while being surrounded by the draughtiest building possible which is rather lovely combo. But while it’s a gorgeous building it really doesn’t meet most people’s swim needs or changing room needs.

The exposed bodies we see all around us, in magazines, tv, publicly, are all particularly lovely specimens by the standard of the day and further touched up to 'perfection'.

People at the pool are not. They are normal bodies rather than curated, exceptional and probably fake.

That's beside the point. No one has suggested taking away cubicles.

@BitMuch believe it or not, when you tried clothes on in the shops there used to be just one shared room with benches around and mirrors at intervals. It was unsatisfactory- the cool girls hogged the space and the mirrors, intimidating everyone else, and it was painful if you'd picked up something too small or just not flattering.