AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

[IWillSqueakAgain]

I know I’m on fwr

This is about SINGLE SEX changing rooms. Not mixed sex, not toilet stalls and so on.

I’m struggling to think of my wording here so thought I’d ask other women who know biology their opinions. I don’t want to put it in aibu because I think too many would deliberately misread it and pile on.

On some of the recent threads a few have brought up single ‘stalls’ and how this should be the norm everywhere.

I think the use of lesbians eying up women or women being scared as they were victims of women and so on are easy to identify false equivalencies to reframe or misdirect the arguement, it’s not difficult to see that bs for what it is. I feel like the idea we should all have single cubicles for all changing is also a form of this misdirection, but I can’t quite articulate it fully and wanted others thoughts.

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false. It’s not just one cubicle for one woman, because we need ones for mother’s with young children and so on, and setting up the space to cater for this means way fewer woman can get changed at the same time.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

I think any adult or child who wants to charge in a cubicle should, their dignity and choice should be catered for also. I’m not saying any single cubicle only spaces should change to have some communal women’s changing areas by any means.

But there are plenty of women’s changing room that are set up to have communal areas as well as some cubicles also. This isn’t new and in my experience is the norm still.

While this is common sense use of space I think there’s knock on benefits of this set up.

Girls grow up in a world that at best portrays women’s bodies as air brushed, enhanced, flawless male fantasy. Often younger generations are exposed to a pornified image of how women should look naked.

Surely it’s not a bad thing for girls/teens/young women to see that women have normal bodies. That we have stretch marks and wobbly bits just like they do. That the image of how women should looked that’s pushed down their throats isn’t at all representative of actual women and that they don’t need to beat themselves up for not looking like those images.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on. Rather than teen girls hitting puberty being humiliated by flooding in public or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds isn’t it a good thing they’ve already seen that this is just part of having a woman’s body and not something us other women feel ashamed of or should be hidden away.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

There’s plenty circumstances in life when women being comfortable being semi naked around other women is beneficial. Giving birth, learning to breastfeed, when we might need personal care with toileting or bathing either due to age or other medical circumstances. It’s a good thing if it’s normal for women to be comfortable with other women before we get to these stages, growing up getting changed around other women is part of that. Not saying it’s the only part of that or that it should be pushed on anyone uncomfortable, but it’s just part of every day life for women ime.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this correctly, but I feel like the idea single cubicles are the perfect solution overlooks the fact that not only are plenty of women fine with communal single sex changing facilities, but that there’s actually a positive effect from them on how we view our bodies and their functions.

Does this make sense to other women here? Is there a better way of explaining this?

Naked bodies aren’t ugly.

They just see what they are.

The male ones can pose serious risk to us, because men pose a risk to us, and the women’s ones share many of the same experiences mine does so I don’t feel uncomfortable or vulnerable around them if changing etc.

Applying a judgement like ugly to naked bodies seems bizarre. It’s like the opposite end of the spectrum to how highly sexualised women’s bodies are.

I get we apply judgment to our own bodies, however rooted in unhealthy impulses that is, but projecting that onto naked bodies as a whole doesn’t seem healthy at all.

Oh and to whoever asked I was strictly thinking about gym/swimming changing rooms when posting this. I never even considered shop changing rooms, I haven’t been in one in years as ordering works better as I have two disabled girls to care for, on top of my own disabilities. Literally never entered my head that changing rooms might relate to shop ones. Sorry if that wasn’t 100% clear to anyone.

@IWillSqueakAgain

Oh and to whoever asked I was strictly thinking about gym/swimming changing rooms when posting this. I never even considered shop changing rooms, I haven’t been in one in years as ordering works better as I have two disabled girls to care for, on top of my own disabilities. Literally never entered my head that changing rooms might relate to shop ones. Sorry if that wasn’t 100% clear to anyone.

Well if people hate using communal changing rooms in shops (where they usually keep their underwear on) they're probably going to hate them even more in swimming pools and gyms where they have to get naked.

Cly I don’t think it is an unpopular view judging by what posters have written here. Of course plenty prefer cubicles, but like I said both work well.

I just am glad my instinct that the ‘seperate cubicles is the ideal solution for everyone’ is just the red herring to shut up women who fight for our status quo of single sex spaces.

I also really appreciate the input from those who explained how communal women’s spaces (with seperate cubicles around them) work out much safer for those of us who are the most vulnerable. It helped me clarify my thinking of the risks to cubicle only approach, so now I’m confident how I’d reply to anyone suggesting that irl.

The thing about communal single sex changing rooms with plenty cubicles around them is that it suits all of us women who are happy with communal and those who don’t want to change in front of other women or see us do so (it’s really easy to avoid if your just walking straight to a cubicle, even if they’re getting all oooh naked bodies yucky on here).

The only people it wouldn’t work for it seems are the men.

So that answers that then.

I wonder if our bodies have become so sexualised that we're afraid of being naked among other women
Why do you think we're afraid? Maybe people just want privacy. It's a shame that women have to justify their wish for privacy, to not want to remove their clothes in front of other people or not want to breastfeed in public.

I disagree feeling. I only recall changing in a communal changing room in a shop once, I didn’t realise it didn’t have cubicles and I was mortified trying to pull up clothes I didn’t know fitted me or not. And I was young with a near perfect figure at that age, but still felt super uncomfortable and embarrassed. Especially because the whole thing had mirrors all the way around. And the point of shop changing rooms is to look in the mirror at what your trying on.

Just getting dressed in a communal gym changing room into clothes I know fit me fine well when I have zero need to check how they look from every angle in the surrounding mirrors isn’t at all uncomfortable ime.

But again, the communal single sex changing rooms at the gym I use have several other cubicles for women who aren’t comfortable changing communally. So it works for any woman.

I mean because I think we're afraid of of displaying our imperfections. We are bombarded by images of naked and semi naked women who are perfect. Smooth, flawless, toned, perfect. Our own bodies are hideous by comparison. And the less we see other 'normal' female bodies, the less normality we have to compare ourselves against.

The only people it wouldn't work for it seems are the men
I believe that unisex changing changing villages were designed with families in mind, so that single parents could go swimming and get changed with opposite sex children, so not just men.

And the wanting privacy thing is totally cultural and socialised. Let's not pretend it's about some innate 'feeling'. It's not.

Iwillsqueakagain
So you didn't like using them because of the mirrors? Other people didn't like using them because of them being ... communal.

Again feeling you can read the detailed description of the three seperate changing rooms at the gym I use, with the description of included cubicles etc within the family/disabled access/mixed sex one and the women’s.

That’s what i had in mind when asking this and I think that’s pretty obvious from the description given.

I never suggested anywhere not have unisex/family changing, just that single sex option is essential also, and that cubicles only approach doesn’t magically meet the needs single sex spaces do, despite the constant claims on the AIBU threads that it does.

And if they don’t like the gym changing rooms they can use the cubicles. But cubicles only instead of single sex spaces rather than as well as doesn’t meet women’s needs for privacy, safety, dignity. Like I said it’s a red herring to distract from women’s reasonable legally protected right to single sex spaces.

@Clymene

And the wanting privacy thing is totally cultural and socialised. Let's not pretend it's about some innate 'feeling'. It's not.

So what? Much of human behaviour is cultural and socialised. Like eg not killing each other, or women getting to consent to sex (for the most part), or pissing and shitting in a toilet instead of just anywhere. Shall we stop doing those things because they're not innate?

I only recall changing in a communal changing room in a shop once, I didn’t realise it didn’t have cubicles and I was mortified trying to pull up clothes I didn’t know fitted me or not.

I very much agree about the reason communal fitting rooms are awful.

So what? Much of human behaviour is cultural and socialised. Like eg not killing each other, or women getting to consent to sex (for the most part), or pissing and shitting in a toilet instead of just anywhere. Shall we stop doing those things because they're not innate?

That's rather strange reasoning the reason we encourage socialised taboos around those things is that they are, in and of themselves, undesirable and just bad.

The point with this is that a socially created aversion to communal change rooms has little or no real inherent undesirability or moral issues attached, and the OP is suggesting could have some up-sides.

The reason some people have disagreed is a desire for privacy, a feeling - the point Clymene made was that this is a socially created feeling so would not be a factor if it was more normative.

I just am glad my instinct that the ‘seperate cubicles is the ideal solution for everyone’ is just the red herring to shut up women who fight for our status quo of single sex spaces.

Deffo. Completely transparent.

And yes, to not liking communal changing rooms in shops. Thankfully they seem to be a thing of the past. But they used to be commonplace.

Oddly, I'd rather communal changing at a gym than a shop.

I think that shop changing (rarely naked or even topless) is not a comparison to make.

I was told once that separate cubicles weren't in swimming pools due to people having shags in them. Obviously the more worrying aspect of sexual assault in one is a bigger issue.

A friend was subjected to voyerism in a mixed changing room with gaps beneath the cubicles.

I just said to my son who got upset once over having to use a communal changeroom for school swimming.
"Communal changing rooms."

He said, "Don't remind me."
He did say some of the girls were asking for cubicles.

That was about 7 years ago.
I remember saying to him then, "Do they still have communal rooms?"

Teachers weren't allowed in either.
I told him to keep himself covered as best as he could. I think he ended up wearing trunks under his trousers.
It is humiliating for some kids.

@tofuschnitzel

I remember communal changing rooms in Miss Selfridge about twenty years ago. It's a lot easier to abuse that set up as everyone has a phone in their pocket now to take covert photos. You see that happening in communal changing rooms for gyms and swimming pools. I think that single cubicles are the way forward, there are other ways for girls and young women to be educated about what a normal woman's body looks like.

I really do not believe that women are taking photographs of other women in single sex communal changing rooms.

@SirVixOfVixHall absolutely has happened. Two young women a couple of years ago took a photo secretly of an older woman changing behind them in a communal changing room and shared it online mocking her appearance. It went viral. It was horrible. They did get a lot of backlash from it but doesn't change the fact that photo is out there now. There are lots of horrible people about!

@Clymene

I mean because I think we're afraid of of displaying our imperfections. We are bombarded by images of naked and semi naked women who are perfect. Smooth, flawless, toned, perfect. Our own bodies are hideous by comparison. And the less we see other 'normal' female bodies, the less normality we have to compare ourselves against.

We see "normal bodies" all around us. The average swimming pool or gym is going to be packed with "normal bodies". Wearing a swimsuit, leggings or whatever doesn't magically hide the imperfections.

I remember one viral pic of a woman changing taken my another (young) woman.

It does happen, but it’s very rare, and like the ‘women are sex offenders too’ rhetoric it’s just a red herring to shut down women’s rights.

In mixed sex changing rooms with cubicles or curtains men would be taking videos and pictures much much more than the rare occasion a woman has done it to other women. From a risk perspective pov women doing this isn’t an issue, men doing it is. Cubicles that have partitions that are floor to ceiling leave us at greater risk of men following us in and assaulting us without others in neighbouring stalls realising and getting us help. So that isn’t a magic solution to the risk of pictures as it just brings another very serious risk to us.

I can’t see any benefit to mixed sex loos or changing rooms for women or girls. Boys under 8 can already go in the female loos and that arrangement is fine but otherwise what is the benefit to females?