AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

[IWillSqueakAgain]

I know I’m on fwr

This is about SINGLE SEX changing rooms. Not mixed sex, not toilet stalls and so on.

I’m struggling to think of my wording here so thought I’d ask other women who know biology their opinions. I don’t want to put it in aibu because I think too many would deliberately misread it and pile on.

On some of the recent threads a few have brought up single ‘stalls’ and how this should be the norm everywhere.

I think the use of lesbians eying up women or women being scared as they were victims of women and so on are easy to identify false equivalencies to reframe or misdirect the arguement, it’s not difficult to see that bs for what it is. I feel like the idea we should all have single cubicles for all changing is also a form of this misdirection, but I can’t quite articulate it fully and wanted others thoughts.

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false. It’s not just one cubicle for one woman, because we need ones for mother’s with young children and so on, and setting up the space to cater for this means way fewer woman can get changed at the same time.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

I think any adult or child who wants to charge in a cubicle should, their dignity and choice should be catered for also. I’m not saying any single cubicle only spaces should change to have some communal women’s changing areas by any means.

But there are plenty of women’s changing room that are set up to have communal areas as well as some cubicles also. This isn’t new and in my experience is the norm still.

While this is common sense use of space I think there’s knock on benefits of this set up.

Girls grow up in a world that at best portrays women’s bodies as air brushed, enhanced, flawless male fantasy. Often younger generations are exposed to a pornified image of how women should look naked.

Surely it’s not a bad thing for girls/teens/young women to see that women have normal bodies. That we have stretch marks and wobbly bits just like they do. That the image of how women should looked that’s pushed down their throats isn’t at all representative of actual women and that they don’t need to beat themselves up for not looking like those images.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on. Rather than teen girls hitting puberty being humiliated by flooding in public or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds isn’t it a good thing they’ve already seen that this is just part of having a woman’s body and not something us other women feel ashamed of or should be hidden away.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

There’s plenty circumstances in life when women being comfortable being semi naked around other women is beneficial. Giving birth, learning to breastfeed, when we might need personal care with toileting or bathing either due to age or other medical circumstances. It’s a good thing if it’s normal for women to be comfortable with other women before we get to these stages, growing up getting changed around other women is part of that. Not saying it’s the only part of that or that it should be pushed on anyone uncomfortable, but it’s just part of every day life for women ime.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this correctly, but I feel like the idea single cubicles are the perfect solution overlooks the fact that not only are plenty of women fine with communal single sex changing facilities, but that there’s actually a positive effect from them on how we view our bodies and their functions.

Does this make sense to other women here? Is there a better way of explaining this?

Miss - when I first had my babies I used to go swimming at a mums and babies class. I didn’t change with them as I have twins so dh would come and we’d use the family change room. (The class teacher used to take one of my two into the water, dh didn’t join the class)

I frequently got comments about how jealous they were I got my figure back so quick, along with lots of complaints about how was it I had two babies at once and had such a flat stomach when they had one and still had excess tum.

If they’d seen me without my swim suit they’d realise I have as much loose skin and stretch marks as they do, probably way more, I just don’t carry much fat so with a swim suit over me I look like pregnancy didn’t change my body much.

There’s a whole tone more we unintentionally notice when changing in comparison to wearing swim suit. Not the least of is the attitudes other women have towards their bodies, their level of comfort at not looking like an insta model, that they don’t rush to cover up desperately embarrassed incase someone catches a glimpse of nipple.

There’s a massive difference between what gets noticed in a change room.

Again, if you don’t like it you don’t have to, you can use all the many cubicles and I said that option is always the most important thing repeatedly in op and throughout the thread.

Wota I hated communal changing when I was at school. Hated changing in class at primary because I hit puberty young. Communal changing rooms at high school I found really uncomfortable initially, but by the end of high school I couldn’t have cared less. That seemed pretty similar to a lot of the girls in my year, we’d all be hiding under towels initially but then the older years would come in and get on with it while still chatting away and acting like it’s no big deal and we became much more comfortable with it.

However, I wasn’t thinking about school changing or shop changing rooms and so on. I think that’s obvious. I was wondering it out with regards to gym/swim changing rooms to figure out why it raised such red flags to me when tra’s start up with the separate cubicles are a perfect solution for all talk, because that always felt like a manipulative derail to me.

Plenty posters here helped me see I was right on that one and that they were good with the communal aspect of single sex changing rooms too, as well as clarifying the safety benefits. (Again we’ve all said plenty cubicles should be there for anyone who wants as well).

@IWillSqueakAgain

Miss - when I first had my babies I used to go swimming at a mums and babies class. I didn’t change with them as I have twins so dh would come and we’d use the family change room. (The class teacher used to take one of my two into the water, dh didn’t join the class)

I frequently got comments about how jealous they were I got my figure back so quick, along with lots of complaints about how was it I had two babies at once and had such a flat stomach when they had one and still had excess tum.

If they’d seen me without my swim suit they’d realise I have as much loose skin and stretch marks as they do, probably way more, I just don’t carry much fat so with a swim suit over me I look like pregnancy didn’t change my body much.

There’s a whole tone more we unintentionally notice when changing in comparison to wearing swim suit. Not the least of is the attitudes other women have towards their bodies, their level of comfort at not looking like an insta model, that they don’t rush to cover up desperately embarrassed incase someone catches a glimpse of nipple.

There’s a massive difference between what gets noticed in a change room.

Again, if you don’t like it you don’t have to, you can use all the many cubicles and I said that option is always the most important thing repeatedly in op and throughout the thread.

I don't like communal changing rooms and I don't particularly want to be used to validate other women's insecurities-" ooh look at that "normal" woman over there with her cellulite"

because that always felt like a manipulative derail to me

I find the tone of your posts quite manipulative.

@iwillsqueakagain,

Sure women have reasons for wanting communal rooms but for school kids with no teacher present is odd.

Years ago it was easier when teachers were allowed in for ease of watching kids in one space.
Now though....

They should have guards around cubicles and sealed locked cubicles for privacy.
I'm sure someone will take issue there though...

Private companies make enough money but when somebody makes the argument solely about transpeople, there may be those who don't want to spend for that reason alone.
It depends who may influence them.

Sasha there are mixed sex family cubicles at our gym. These are useful too, but not instead of women’s changing room. If dh was taking our girls swimming when younger-say5-8 ish, so too young to change alone in the women’s, they would definitely been too old to be comfortable going in the men’s with him to change. They have autism so maybe this doesn’t apply to others experience but they definitely wouldn’t have been ok going into the separate cubicles in the men’s with him as they’d think men’s = not them and explode. I also don’t think it sits right from a safe guarding POV either. But at the same time mum being the only one who can take daughters swimming isn’t ideal and vice versa.

I know a couple of large soft plays/activity centres near us that have mixed sex toilets. They have single sex ones also but there’s a large block with the front entirely open but set back from the corridor that is all separate mix sex ones, lots with baby changes, disabled accessible ones and then communal sinks in the middle. This works well for the same reason- if dh is taking our girls out for the day before they were old enough to go to the toilets themselves he can take them in their no problem. Friends who have boys also appreciate this set up if they are out with their 8/9 year old boy, because plenty seem to still find this a bit young to send off to toilets on their own, or their boys cling a bit and wouldn’t go on their own and so on. I’m completely comfortable using these mixed sex set ups meant to meet parents needs, but they are always as an extra option, never instead of safe single sex spaces for women. It’s taking away this necessary, legally protected option I object to.

Again miss for the 100th time- I said in the op there should always be cubicles for anyone who wants them, that should come first, no one has said otherwise.

I’m not talking about you ‘being used’ for others insecurities, I’m saying I’m fine with that and for those of us who are fine with it there’s never going to be a negative that girls growing up see we don’t look like porn stars or insta models and we’re comfortable with that, or that new mums worrying over their changed bodies see actually those of us they see as having perfect post baby bodies in swim suits or jeans actually are far from flawless underneath and aren’t bothered by it. You, or anyone uncomfortable with communal changing don’t have to, those of us fine with it can respect that and acknowledge that us getting on with changing communally can have a positive benefit of putting these things into perspective for other women sometimes. No one is trying to persuade you to like changing communally or feel bad about using cubicles or whatever, but I think you know that fine well and just enjoy being goady.

Miss if you find them manipulative then why take part in my thread?

@IWillSqueakAgain

Miss if you find them manipulative then why take part in my thread?

Why not? Are other opinions not allowed? I found your initial obsession with tampon strings frankly weird.

And I simply don't believe you about the magical, transformative qualities of a swimsuit. I do wonder what world some feminists live in- apparently oblivious to all the "normal" women around them and blinded by a billboard or advert.

There are a couple of posters on this thread that can't afford to give an inch, Squeak. I don't think it's worth arguing with them to be honest.

The current system we have- single sex changing space with cubicles around it- allows people to change in privacy, with others around for safety, and for the more social/less inhibited to change in an area with more space. Win win.

There’s a whole variety of opinions on this thread. You’re the only one who seems to have an issue with that and keeps disagreeing with all of us who say we’ve found benefits. You don’t need to experience those for it to be true for us, and all of us are all saying cubicles should be plenty available also. We’re all happy for you to have your preferred option and us have ours and have the family options available and so on. The only person who appears to have any issue with that is you.

It’s a lot like we say we like custard and others say they don’t like it and along you come and start tell everyone that no one likes custard because you don’t. You don’t get to control others like that just because you didn’t find the same experiences useful.

Btw custard= the Waitrose fresh pouring stuff.

None of that birds eye solid stuff you lot like to run across.

That’s just creme caramels iding as custard because it prefers the flavour custard has.

Because words have meanings ; )

I and many other women won’t use communal changing room and will therefore be excluded from places which have them. I’m not prepared to do so that I can be used as learning lesson to demystify what an old imperfect body looks like. Arguing against cubicles on the basis that it’s a learning opportunity for younger women is such a weak argument and feeds into the view that women are going out of their way to be anti-trans. There are much bigger issues with the women/ transwomen debate and this just makes it look like we’re being obstructive for the sake of it.

Reading comprehension is really poor among some posters. Or deliberate-obtuseness is very high.

No one is arguing against cubicles. Some of us are saying that it's nice to have both, that there are advantages to having both, and isn't it great- we have both.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

Couldn't agree with you more.

Did somebody mention billboards ?
Isn't that part of the objectification argument?

If you've got it, flaunt it. If someone has a nice body and like others looking - why shouldn't they?

I look at them.

It's like when people are in relationships, and still see attraction in others.
Is it possible to switch off your recognition of others just because you are with somebody?
It's about control and not acting on impulse.

I developed a huge crush on somebody years ago. Nothing happened. I've been in several relationships and not give this other person any real thought.
When I do see them, I feel the same way but there is nothing I can do about it. I have a quick chat and leave it there.
I'm just glad to see them and know they are well.
Only that one person though.
A calming and jolly presence which makes me smile - probably the kind of person right for me but not them.

@IWillSqueakAgain

Oh and to whoever asked I was strictly thinking about gym/swimming changing rooms when posting this. I never even considered shop changing rooms, I haven’t been in one in years as ordering works better as I have two disabled girls to care for, on top of my own disabilities. Literally never entered my head that changing rooms might relate to shop ones. Sorry if that wasn’t 100% clear to anyone.

No, that wasn't clear to me. I was mostly talking about changing rooms in shops, and you were only talking about gym/swimming changing rooms in your responses to me. Thank you for clarifying.

The question was whether there are benefits to a communal changing room. I, and others, have put forward what we perceive to be benefits. Nobody has to agree. Quite frankly, before I started using them, I would have disagreed that there were benefits too.

For me, I did find it helpful for my body confidence to be around other women. (I'm not seeking validation or whatever.)

On a more practical level, you can fit more people into a communal changing room and you don't have to wait around for a spare cubicle. When I went to the gym for a 30 minute workout on my lunch break, I would time my journey to almost the second, knowing exactly how long it would take me to get changed etc. If I had to factor in waiting for a cubicle, that would have taken more time. As it was, I had to factor in waiting for a shower to become available (but I rather draw the line at communal showers when I am not wearing a swimsuit.)

So yes, I do see benefits in communal changing areas. Others may disagree. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, and I do find the aggressive tone from some posters to be a little bit unnecessary.

I guess the reports when this kind of thing happens have all been fabricated then?

I must say, I much prefer cubicles in shops, actually. Gyms are a bit different - maybe because you tend to see the same people, and because you have a towel which you can use for modesty if you wish.

Apologies, my most recent comment was in response to @SirVix

About the women taking pictures tofu? I addressed that bottom of page six.

(Of course vix wants to respond too that’s great).

It’s not being obtuse to point out that trying to build an argument for female only communal changing rooms on the basis that it’s an important for young girls to see ageing and saggy bodies seem like a rather feeble and transparent way to exclude transwomen.

I have real concerns about the removal of women only spaces in prisons, sport, service provision etc but arguing against changing cubicles appears petty, obstructive and gives trans campaigners fuel to their “women are not working with us” argument. You may not care and want to battle on every single point but it’s not doing us any favours and actually makes some women who value their privacy feel more sympathetic to their point.

@IWillSqueakAgain

Reading comprehension is really poor among some posters. Or deliberate-obtuseness is very high.

Some good points put forward for communal rooms which I understand as it was put in a decent way. Bullying people into submission or attempting ridicule will only go so far.