AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

[IWillSqueakAgain]

I know I’m on fwr

This is about SINGLE SEX changing rooms. Not mixed sex, not toilet stalls and so on.

I’m struggling to think of my wording here so thought I’d ask other women who know biology their opinions. I don’t want to put it in aibu because I think too many would deliberately misread it and pile on.

On some of the recent threads a few have brought up single ‘stalls’ and how this should be the norm everywhere.

I think the use of lesbians eying up women or women being scared as they were victims of women and so on are easy to identify false equivalencies to reframe or misdirect the arguement, it’s not difficult to see that bs for what it is. I feel like the idea we should all have single cubicles for all changing is also a form of this misdirection, but I can’t quite articulate it fully and wanted others thoughts.

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false. It’s not just one cubicle for one woman, because we need ones for mother’s with young children and so on, and setting up the space to cater for this means way fewer woman can get changed at the same time.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

I think any adult or child who wants to charge in a cubicle should, their dignity and choice should be catered for also. I’m not saying any single cubicle only spaces should change to have some communal women’s changing areas by any means.

But there are plenty of women’s changing room that are set up to have communal areas as well as some cubicles also. This isn’t new and in my experience is the norm still.

While this is common sense use of space I think there’s knock on benefits of this set up.

Girls grow up in a world that at best portrays women’s bodies as air brushed, enhanced, flawless male fantasy. Often younger generations are exposed to a pornified image of how women should look naked.

Surely it’s not a bad thing for girls/teens/young women to see that women have normal bodies. That we have stretch marks and wobbly bits just like they do. That the image of how women should looked that’s pushed down their throats isn’t at all representative of actual women and that they don’t need to beat themselves up for not looking like those images.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on. Rather than teen girls hitting puberty being humiliated by flooding in public or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds isn’t it a good thing they’ve already seen that this is just part of having a woman’s body and not something us other women feel ashamed of or should be hidden away.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

There’s plenty circumstances in life when women being comfortable being semi naked around other women is beneficial. Giving birth, learning to breastfeed, when we might need personal care with toileting or bathing either due to age or other medical circumstances. It’s a good thing if it’s normal for women to be comfortable with other women before we get to these stages, growing up getting changed around other women is part of that. Not saying it’s the only part of that or that it should be pushed on anyone uncomfortable, but it’s just part of every day life for women ime.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this correctly, but I feel like the idea single cubicles are the perfect solution overlooks the fact that not only are plenty of women fine with communal single sex changing facilities, but that there’s actually a positive effect from them on how we view our bodies and their functions.

Does this make sense to other women here? Is there a better way of explaining this?

@IWillSqueakAgain

I remember one viral pic of a woman changing taken my another (young) woman.

It does happen, but it’s very rare, and like the ‘women are sex offenders too’ rhetoric it’s just a red herring to shut down women’s rights.

In mixed sex changing rooms with cubicles or curtains men would be taking videos and pictures much much more than the rare occasion a woman has done it to other women. From a risk perspective pov women doing this isn’t an issue, men doing it is. Cubicles that have partitions that are floor to ceiling leave us at greater risk of men following us in and assaulting us without others in neighbouring stalls realising and getting us help. So that isn’t a magic solution to the risk of pictures as it just brings another very serious risk to us.

That is really uncalled for. I didn't bring that up as a "red herring to shut down women's rights", that completely misrepresents what I have said on this thread. It is really disheartening that because I don't agree with you on this issue, I am apparently in the same league as people who parrot the "women are sex offenders too" rhetoric. I am not the enemy here. I wanted to contribute to the thread, and offer my view as a disabled women. I'm not the enemy.

So it is a reading comprehension problem.

We already have loads of single sex communal changing rooms and always have. Most gyms and swimming pools have always had this. Vast majority have plenty of separate cubicles also (only ones I can think of I’ve ever seen that don’t were at school, and like I said not the changing rooms I was talking about here).

I was saying the suggestion of changing all these already existing single sex changing rooms to separate cubicles as a magic solution when women fight for our legally protected single sex spaces to remain as are is just a red herring to silence us because actually there’s unintended benefits to the way our set up already is, normalises women’s bodies being one of those things, safety another.

Tofu I wasn’t saying you brought it up to do that. I was saying it’s a false equivalency to suggest that because a few times women have photographed other women it’s no different to the risk of men photographing us. Often the women do it too arguments get brought up by tra’s to silence us, and it’s entirely possible you didn’t grasp that and reiterated it here. I wasn’t claiming you’re intentionally using it that way, just that you need to consider the reasonable likelihood of the one or two times that make social media rounds being in any way representative of the majority of women’s experience. You’ve just misread that.

Like I said from a risk assessment pov yes women might do that, but it’s highly unlikely where as men doing it is fairly likely. Decisions about safety tend to get made using risk assessment as there’s never ever options that has zero risk.

I’d already addressed their point on every other post fir the last few pages with several other posters Wota. Either their misreading post after post or their being deliberately obtuse. Or do you assume goady posters never come to fwr?

By calling us goady, you actually aren’t addressing the points I raised and called me obtuse for pointing holes in your argument and not immediately appreciating it for the brilliance that you obviously think it is.

What we and others are trying to point out is that your argument for communal changing alienates many women who would otherwise be strong allies in the fight for women’s rights. But you don’t seem to care about winning as long as you have an obliging echo chamber to scream into.

Snookie, I am in favour of third spaces. I believe there should be a few cubicles available in a gender neutral area for those who need them and are willing to queue for them.

My issue is that communal changing rooms are already in gyms, with the lockers and showers arranged in a particular way. To redevelop every gym so that they all have individual cubicles will involve trade offs in terms of inconvenience while the building work is carried out and the cost of the works (which will be passed on to the users). Once the redevelopment has happened, assuming that all the cubicles are gender-neutral, there will be the attendant issues of safety as previously discussed. Furthermore, having to queue for a cubicle at busy times will create inconveniences for the users not there now. Alternatively, to avoid that problem arising, the gym may choose to devote more space to the changing areas than to the actual gym.

To me, this seems like an enormously disproportionate response to cater for the needs of a very small community.

There should be a handful of cubicles in place for those who cannot or do not wish to use communal facilities for whatever reason. Communal, single-sex changing rooms elsewhere.*

*Please note that I am mainly thinking about gyms, not shops or family swimming pools.

@Snookie00 I agree that it would alienate many women to have communal changing areas, be it for cultural reasons, body image issues or religious reasons. I wish it were not the case, but this is the UK and not countries where nudity outside the home in spas/saunas is normal, never mind the obesity levels we have.

I agree it would normalise the variations and reality of women's bodies not some selective or airbrushed version. However, the response I am sure would be fewer women exercising, many feeling excluded, and health is so important I would not want to see that happen.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

Totally agree @IWillSqueakAgain

But I've noticed myself that I've become less and less shy as I've got older. At my gym (commercial chain, but the branch in my tow is just totally lovely ) there's a large communal area, with lockers, and about 4 cubicles. I never bother with a cubicle, and neither do most of the older women.

But I agree that for teens being in those spaces, there's something important about seeing female bodies of all ages & shapes.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on.

can't say I've ever seen this in a communal changing room TBH. Grey pants and bras being put on, sure, but tampon string? Why? When?

There is an older lady at my gym who takes her time. she goes swimming, goes for a shower, sits around half naked (always pants) chatting to whoever is around, and it's great - she's a bit deaf, so you end up yelling or leaning in and occasionally exchanging a glance with another gym user when something weird is said. I'm all for that. But it's in the no-kids area.

Downstairs, where kids (male up to 9) are allowed, it's very much more in and out, nudity yes, but fleeting because it's either serious swimmers in a hurry, or mums trying to get the kids dressed.

I would appreciate family change, as my 10 year old boy tells me that he doesn't like the mens - they're all naked, and no cubicles (the women's has a couple of cubicles) - and TBH, I do worry about him in there alone.

But having said that, if I'm visiting alone, I choose single sex communal over mixed sex cubicles every time.

@EdgeOfACoin. The financial argument makes total sense and is for some places I can see why this may be prohibitively expensive. This should absolutely be taken into account.

This argument that making many women both old and young uncomfortable so that older women can demonstrate to younger women that our bodies become flabby and not model-perfect is crap. And that’s before the tampon string factor. Many teenagers use tampons and have no issues with them. For young girls that don’t, I’m not sure that seeing a strangers vulva and tampon string is going to make them converts.

@Snookie00

It’s not being obtuse to point out that trying to build an argument for female only communal changing rooms on the basis that it’s an important for young girls to see ageing and saggy bodies seem like a rather feeble and transparent way to exclude transwomen.

I have real concerns about the removal of women only spaces in prisons, sport, service provision etc but arguing against changing cubicles appears petty, obstructive and gives trans campaigners fuel to their “women are not working with us” argument. You may not care and want to battle on every single point but it’s not doing us any favours and actually makes some women who value their privacy feel more sympathetic to their point.

I suspect your missing the point. If communal changing rooms were got rid of then things like the Staniland Question would lose a considerable part of their punch. Never forget that for many people this isn't really about single sex spaces it's about morally mandating transsexuality out of existence and communal changing rooms are too valuable a weapon in that aim to be sacrificed just because some women can't use them. Sometimes you gotta take one for the team.

@jj1968. I and many women have real concerns about the move towards removal of women only spaces. Prisons, sport, service provision, women only lists are areas where many women have valid and reasonable concerns and should fight hard to protect. Communal changing areas so girls can see older women’s bodies is not not the hill that many of us want to die on. The financial issues with imposing segregation is an issue which might make cubicle-only unfeasible but it shouldn’t be so young girls can see older women’s stretch marks.

I suspect your missing the point. If communal changing rooms were got rid of then things like the Staniland Question would lose a considerable part of their punch.

Or. Just keep out of all women spaces. Where women are vulnerable or naked. It's really not difficult.

Don't try and eliminate the entire concept because it doesn't suit your agenda!

I've never heard anything so entitled in my life.

[quote Snookie00]@jj1968. I and many women have real concerns about the move towards removal of women only spaces. Prisons, sport, service provision, women only lists are areas where many women have valid and reasonable concerns and should fight hard to protect. Communal changing areas so girls can see older women’s bodies is not not the hill that many of us want to die on. The financial issues with imposing segregation is an issue which might make cubicle-only unfeasible but it shouldn’t be so young girls can see older women’s stretch marks.[/quote]
I appreciate you saying that, but I do get the feeling that to some GC people a solution that worked for everyone would be a disaster. Worth remembering that the original rad fems who opposed trans people never really cared about single sex spaces although they did want trans people out of explicitly feminist spaces. They wanted trans people gone and a lot of the campaigning was about things like getting rid of trans healthcare to prevent transition. Those people are still about and many of them like Sheila Jeffries are at the heart of the gender critical movement.

@Datun

I suspect your missing the point. If communal changing rooms were got rid of then things like the Staniland Question would lose a considerable part of their punch.

Or. Just keep out of all women spaces. Where women are vulnerable or naked. It's really not difficult.

Don't try and eliminate the entire concept because it doesn't suit your agenda!

I've never heard anything so entitled in my life.

The vast majority of trans people would not use a communal changing room, the last thing we want is people gawping at our bodies. That's why barely anyone has ever actually seen a trans women in a communal space. Communal changing rooms mean trans people don't feel comfortable going swimming, neither can many people from minority religions or many women if this thread is anything to go by. Why should some people's desire to be naked around other people supercede the right of all those other people to use that service. Go to a nudist beach if that's what you want FFS.

If cubicles have lockable, full length doors then great and I have no issue with anyone using that changing room.

I think the crap 'curtain that doesn't fully close' or communal changing room should be banned altogether - particularly if you can't guarantee that natal born women are the only people using that space

I won't use a communal changing room, I haven't used one since I was about 15 (now mid 40s)

If a communal changing room is the only type available I would rather shop elsewhere, or if this is the only option I'll buy more than I need and return what doesn't fit. It's fucking humiliating stripping down to your undies in a large group space, regardless of who is in there - I'm not some kind of exhibit for young girls to examine in order to feel comfortable in themselves. Fuck that (plus teenage girls are mostly judgemental arseholes so no thanks)

The vast majority of trans people would not use a communal changing room, the last thing we want is people gawping at our bodies. That's why barely anyone has ever actually seen a trans women in a communal space. Communal changing rooms mean trans people don't feel comfortable going swimming, neither can many people from minority religions or many women if this thread is anything to go by. Why should some people's desire to be naked around other people supercede the right of all those other people to use that service. Go to a nudist beach if that's what you want FFS.

Too bad jj. You don't get to eliminate an entire concept, because it doesn't fit your agenda. It's a female space, just like any other female space. For females.

There is absolutely no difference between it and any other female space, apart from the fact that shows up your agenda.

I wouldn't use a communal changing room in a shop in 2021.
Lots of people take selfies while trying on stuff and I wouldn't want to end up in their background in my knickers because or something. I'd then have to ask the person to delete the image from the phone and deleted items folder so I was sure it was gone. If a woman refuses to delete the pic then what?

I would fear that communal changing rooms would exclude some modest women like the religious from swimming etc as they couldn't guarantee that a person with a penis wasn't in their presence. I know that in theory the space would be for women but we've seen many big businesses cave in to pressure for unisex cubicles so I wouldn't be confident that it would remain single sex.

There was a case in the last couple of years where a Playboy model in the US took a selfie in a gym changing room in such a way that she could bodyshame the elderly woman in the background.

Oh and won't use one in the gym either - people take photos in there, either of themselves or of other people, neither of which I consider acceptable where other people may be naked in the background

I think you're right to want to counter the world of photoshop and filters but I see women every day who aren't shaped like a Victoria Secret model by walking around places like the supermarket. (Is it a sign of my age that idgaf about how I look compared to other women?)

@marshmallowfluffy

I would fear that communal changing rooms would exclude some modest women like the religious from swimming etc as they couldn't guarantee that a person with a penis wasn't in their presence. I know that in theory the space would be for women but we've seen many big businesses cave in to pressure for unisex cubicles so I wouldn't be confident that it would remain single sex.

Many Muslims consider any public nudity forbidden even amongst the same sex, there are quite strict rules about it in the Qur'an.

JJ, I have given a few reasons as to why redeveloping existing gyms so that the changing areas are entirely made up of cubicles may have a negative impact on the people who already use those gyms in terms of cost and convenience.

My suggestion is to have a few cubicles installed in a gender-neutral area, perhaps with an enclosed shower, so that those who feel unable to use the communal changing rooms for any reason can use those ones instead.

Do you feel that that is an acceptable compromise? Does it have to be a redesign of the entire existing set-up?

Also, I'm just trying to think how you would redesign a gym changing room which also need showering facilities. The gyms I've been to do have separate cubicles for showers (which normally have gaps below and above doors that don't lock) but you still have to walk there from the main changing area - usually in just a towel. Many women would feel uncomfortable walking from the changing cubicle to the shower area in nothing but a towel in a unisex area. At busy times, I've often had to wait for a shower to become available.

So out of curiosity, what is the best way to solve this issue? I suppose all cubicles could be designed with an enclosed shower, but that would take up even more space in the changing area, meaning that you lose more space from the gym itself.

Honestly, I think shops should all have cubicles. Swimming pools and local leisure centres that cater to families should probably have a mix of different sorts of facilities. City gyms that mainly cater to working professionals on a tight schedule (trying to fit in a class before work or on a lunch break) may have different requirements again. In those gyms, I do think there are some benefits to communal changing areas, mainly for cost and efficiency. (Although I do see the benefits of communal changing areas for other reasons, although clearly this is something that is hotly contested on this board!)

In my gym, a lot of women choose to do their hair and make up while dressed only in their underwear. I'm not sure why (def not my choice). I assume for practical reasons, like not getting water or make-up on their clothes. I suppose if the area were unisex, many of them would opt to get fully dressed first. They might consider that to be an inconvenience.