AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

[IWillSqueakAgain]

I know I’m on fwr

This is about SINGLE SEX changing rooms. Not mixed sex, not toilet stalls and so on.

I’m struggling to think of my wording here so thought I’d ask other women who know biology their opinions. I don’t want to put it in aibu because I think too many would deliberately misread it and pile on.

On some of the recent threads a few have brought up single ‘stalls’ and how this should be the norm everywhere.

I think the use of lesbians eying up women or women being scared as they were victims of women and so on are easy to identify false equivalencies to reframe or misdirect the arguement, it’s not difficult to see that bs for what it is. I feel like the idea we should all have single cubicles for all changing is also a form of this misdirection, but I can’t quite articulate it fully and wanted others thoughts.

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false. It’s not just one cubicle for one woman, because we need ones for mother’s with young children and so on, and setting up the space to cater for this means way fewer woman can get changed at the same time.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

I think any adult or child who wants to charge in a cubicle should, their dignity and choice should be catered for also. I’m not saying any single cubicle only spaces should change to have some communal women’s changing areas by any means.

But there are plenty of women’s changing room that are set up to have communal areas as well as some cubicles also. This isn’t new and in my experience is the norm still.

While this is common sense use of space I think there’s knock on benefits of this set up.

Girls grow up in a world that at best portrays women’s bodies as air brushed, enhanced, flawless male fantasy. Often younger generations are exposed to a pornified image of how women should look naked.

Surely it’s not a bad thing for girls/teens/young women to see that women have normal bodies. That we have stretch marks and wobbly bits just like they do. That the image of how women should looked that’s pushed down their throats isn’t at all representative of actual women and that they don’t need to beat themselves up for not looking like those images.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on. Rather than teen girls hitting puberty being humiliated by flooding in public or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds isn’t it a good thing they’ve already seen that this is just part of having a woman’s body and not something us other women feel ashamed of or should be hidden away.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

There’s plenty circumstances in life when women being comfortable being semi naked around other women is beneficial. Giving birth, learning to breastfeed, when we might need personal care with toileting or bathing either due to age or other medical circumstances. It’s a good thing if it’s normal for women to be comfortable with other women before we get to these stages, growing up getting changed around other women is part of that. Not saying it’s the only part of that or that it should be pushed on anyone uncomfortable, but it’s just part of every day life for women ime.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this correctly, but I feel like the idea single cubicles are the perfect solution overlooks the fact that not only are plenty of women fine with communal single sex changing facilities, but that there’s actually a positive effect from them on how we view our bodies and their functions.

Does this make sense to other women here? Is there a better way of explaining this?

Finnish girl, two Germans, a French girl and just one other Scot.

All walked into a pub.....

Many Germans are comfortable in mixed sex saunas and French people obviously have different views on going topless in public.

Different people draw boundaries in different places.

I’ve seen several women quite comfortable sticking a fresh pad on their pants in the communal space. Presumably they chucked the old one in the toilets before heading to the showers, then don’t feel the need to walk all the way back to the toilets at the other end to stick a fresh one on. They aren’t precious about it, and they shouldn’t need to be.

As a super self conscious very early developer seeing normal women getting on with what they needed to do was helpful. I was only 10 when I started my periods, only kid in primary school to do so, no sanpro at primary then. My mother only ever handed me a pack of pads and said don’t think this will mean you’ll get to stay off school. And that was it, not religious at all, my mother was both well educated (post grad) and an unmarried single mother in a council house- if you need such detail to decide if my experience is valid or not. Like I’ve said on plenty of other threads she was also hugely abusive, including knowingly handing me over to be raped by whichever boyfriend was around at the time.

Maybe other women grow up learning that periods are no big deal and nothing to be self conscious about, I didn’t, and by the looks of this thread plenty others haven’t either.

If seeing women sin swim suits had such an overwhelming effect on normalising women’s bodies to girls growing up then we wouldn’t have generations of girls who feel they must shave every inch of body hair or seek out labia surgery or feel that their very slightly mismatched breasts make them a freak because they don’t realise that the pornified images everywhere are not normal. If my girls having grown up getting changed in communal female spaces have inevitably picked up that women don’t look like they do in porn that’s a good thing. While women don’t watch each other little kids definitely watch us and take in way more than we notice. My girls have autism too so me explaining at home that women aren’t supposed to look like a barbie doll means very little, a decade of taking this in at swimming pool communal changing room does help counter the inevitable impact of current day high school attitudes to how girls should look.

You don’t get that that’s fine, I’m not saying anyone should use communal spaces and I said there should always be plenty seperate cubicles first and foremost.

That said Barrak really made me think about what would be safest for my girls if they were changing at the pool without me. They are old enough to do so now and I think Barrak is spot on that the availablity of other women around is far safer than seperate cubicles. Our pool has men’s, women’s and a family change (the latter is all cubicles) and the women’s has a large communal section, several individual cubicles off of it, and a communal section seperate by a curtain with a women only sign (because it’s accepted women in the other women’s areas might have preschool age boys in with them if no family cubicles left) and whether my daughters changed in the communal section of the women’s or the seperate cubicles in their I think they’d be much much safer with the fact lots of other women are around than they would be in a family/mix sexed change room with either floor to ceiling partitions or the kind with a space under (the former are greater risk of no one realising a man has forced his way in after them and the latter has a greater risk of others filming under them). So Barrak is entirely correct on that point. So if dh was taking them swimming then the current women’s set up at our gym best meets my girls safety needs and privacy and dignity (because they are too old to be comfortable changing in family rooms with dh).

Lazy that’s not at all what I said now is it. Stop trying to manipulate what’s been said.

Frequently fanny.

@IWillSqueakAgain

Tellme I think Barrak point about safety can’t be achieved by other means.

Like I said in op I’m not suggesting this is the only way these benefits can be brought about or the reason behind communal changing rooms or that any single cubicle only chsngeing rooms should be altered at all.

I just think often on threads about women’s changing area the argument is given that seperate cubicles for all is the only way to meet everyone’s needs is a fallacy. Not as easy to indentify as the false equivalency of ‘women are sex offenders too’ or ‘but lesbians women might eye you up’ crap that’s tooted by the twaw so shut up and move over crowd, but I do think it’s fallacy all the same as there’s benefits to some communal single sex spaces and individual cubicles don’t perfectly meet all needs.

No one on this thread has touted "women are sex offenders too" or "but lesbian women might eye you up" as reasons for being against communal single sex changing spaces. I also explicitly said that when photos are taken in single sex communal changing rooms, it is because people can be cruel and unkind about other bodies. It is rarely done for titillation.

People don't have to agree with you, OP. You haven't addressed my concerns about being a disabled woman in those spaces. You've said that single stalls would be available, but can you imagine how busy they would be? Many many women would not want to get changed in communal single sex areas, so I would expect there to be long waits for those cubicles. So I would have to wait even longer to try things on, which would be very very difficult for me due to my disability. Should I just go home and not bother? In effect, I would be excluded from those spaces. But that's ok because you think there are benefits to communal changing rooms? You seem to think the benefits of communal changing rooms for girls and young women is all that matters here. There's a reason why communal changing rooms fell out of favour on the high street.

Yeah OP, I agree. It's largely about social norms. When I was young the social norm was largely that single sex change rooms were communal, and that strongly influenced people's sense of their bodies. Privacy in terms of a sexual context was pretty clearly respected - you were pervy or at least inappropriate if you tried to get into opposite sex change rooms - but nakedness in itself was fine and our bodies were nothing that needed to be hidden. It wasn't about looking alluring or anything like that and there was plenty of exposure to women who were older, had had children, surgeries, etc. The men's were similar (and I've been told anecdotally are still more likely to follow this pattern.)

You see the same thing in a great many other cultures where there is, for example, public bathing - the sense is that body is a body and not something needing to be hidden or ashamed about, that ageing is normal, etc. And yet it's not sexually exploitative.

The increase in the need for individual cubicles and such IMO is very much connected to a rise in increasingly sexualised images of women and also feeds back into sexist ideas and sexualisation of the female body - the more we see only these highly controlled images of women's bodies, the more we think our bodies somehow don't cut it - even in a setting where our sexual attractiveness is of zero importance.

Just like the increase in the corporate pushing of highly gendered toys and interests in childhood, I think this reveals what is actually a cultural reversal in terms of healthy attitudes to our own bodies, and bodies in general, and its ironic that people think it's actually more respectful. There's also a little bit of a missing the forest for the trees - yes, it's true if an individual doesn't want to change in a communal change-room no one should make them. But the existence and common use of spaces like that also shapes the attitudes individual come to have to their bodies, while the sense that we need to be carefully hived off and not show them creates a different kind of relationship to them.

If seeing women sin swim suits had such an overwhelming effect on normalising women’s bodies to girls growing up then we wouldn’t have generations of girls who feel they must shave every inch of body hair or seek out labia surgery or feel that their very slightly mismatched breasts make them a freak because they don’t realise that the pornified images everywhere are not normal

But French magazines have long been full of advertisements for bust firming cream, even though it's very normal for women to be topless in France.

Women shave their legs even though it's not unusual to see legs.

I think your practical points about safety are however fair. There is always a tension between being isolated and being safe.

Your misunderstanding tofu. I said in the op that on changing room threads the twaw crowd shut down women by using false equivalents if women can be sex offenders too and lesbians can eye you up in the women so what does men being in their matter.

These are obvious bs arguments to derail or reframe the argument pro women’s single sex spaces.

I think the idea that separate cubicles for all (along with the idea that we should all be campaigning for that, with the implication we are wasting our time protecting single sex spaces) is the ideal solution and would fix everything is an equal derail, because we loose unintended benefits to women’s communal areas and it doesn’t provide the perfect safety solution, as others said much better.

The ‘let’s stop arguing for single sex spaces and start campaigns for single cubicles only’ is a red herring. But a harder one to indentify and call out the way the above examples are. I was referring to what I said about that in my op, not anything said by others here.

I've been thinking about this some more (sorry I am a slower thinker and not very good at expressing my thoughts understandably).

Something a previous poster said made me think. It's not just or even at all about communal changing rooms. It's about having, preferably frequent, access to a female only space.

The first time I experienced this was pregnancy when I went to aquanatal classes at the pool which were female only. There is something very different about that sort of space. I'm not quite sure how to describe it - it's almost a sense of security and belonging, and being myself. I have noticed that same feeling again in other female only spaces. Somehow everything is different in a good way, and I think it is that that young people should have the opportunity to experience.

I think it’s a shame that as a society we’re so prudish and see a naked body as inherently sexual when it isn’t. There is nothing shameful or taboo about a human body and I agree with PPs who say it’s as much about a cultural shift as it is facilities.

That’s not to say we should have nudity in our faces everywhere. Cubicles should remain available for people who want them as OP said. My local swimming pool has a communal women’s room, a communal men’s room and a mixed sex area with individual cubicles. To my knowledge there has never been a problem with with this set up, I used to go swimming there at primary school with the whole class and nothing untoward happened to us. But I don’t think it was this that made me comfortable with my body and the idea of nudity, that was more from my family who are the sit and chat while someone’s in the bath types.

I am a disabled women tofu, said that already.

I don’t know what gyms you use, but ours has a large mixed sex/family/disabled access section that has many large cubicles, two disabled toilets with showers in them and family showers and two other toilets. Then there’s men’s, no idea what it’s like. Our women’s has a large communal section, another communal section off it with a curtain and a woman only sign (so no preschool boys with mums allowed in there), several other seperate cubicles around the outside of the large communal area, toilets one end and showers the other. Mostly the cubicles are empty ime. Mostly the family/disabled access/mixed sex area is quiet. I’ve seen a woman use the women’s in her wheelchair before, although I’ve never noticed if she uses the cubicles or the communal areas. Mostly the women’s communal area is busy, most women of all ages appear to prefer this ime. It’s a large chain gym so I’d assume other branches have similar set up, although that may be dependant on the building.

I very clearly said seperate cubicled areas shouldn’t change to incorporate communal areas. I’m not proposing any ideal solution-women don’t have to fix everything. I said I don’t think the idea that seperate changing rooms only are the ideal solution is accurate and championing that as the only way detracts from how valid the need for single sex areas are.

If my gym switched from communal to cubicles-only,
A) how much would my gym membership increase by to cover the cost of re-developing the facilities and
B) What would be the chances of me missing my gym class because all the cubicles were occupied?

I agree
championing separate spaces as the only way detracts from how valid the need for single sex areas are. There should be adequate, flexible space for people to change in a way which is comfortable for them.

Women only spaces are more comfortable for many of us. I only realised how much so when I went back into the workplace after a prolonged period at home with my children mixing almost entirely with other mums. Then when those mums brought their husbands along to women's social events I was disconcerted. I am wary around men. It takes me a while to decide whether I want to relax around them.

Women only spaces are relaxed in a way mixed spaces aren't.

Lazy that’s not at all what I said now is it. Stop trying to manipulate what’s been said.

I wasn't intending to imply that you were saying that women ought to be forced to use communal changing rooms. I was merely trying to say that I suspect a lot of women (particularly very young ones) would only use a communal changing room if they had no choice (e.g. if there were no cubicles or all were occupied). If this is the case, then the benefits of communal changing are a bit of a moot point if people don't want them and don't feel comfortable using them.

I'm sure you (and anyone else reasonable) would agree that they shouldn't be imposed for women's own good but against their will, regardless of any benefits. I do very much see what you're getting at about the importance of women's bodies of all kinds and ages not being regarded as weird, horrible, shameful etc though.

I like single-sex communal changing rooms, with plenty of cubicles also available for those who want them -- but all inside the single-sex space. I feel safer and more comfortable changing in a room with other women around than in a cubicle on my own.

Needless to say, the presence of a male-bodied person, other than a small child, would destroy all of that. I would not return to that place, if I had any other options. And I would make it clear to the management that that is why they're not getting my money any more.

I wasn't intending to imply that you were saying that women ought to be forced to use communal changing rooms. I was merely trying to say that I suspect a lot of women (particularly very young ones) would only use a communal changing room if they had no choice (e.g. if there were no cubicles or all were occupied). If this is the case, then the benefits of communal changing are a bit of a moot point if people don't want them and don't feel comfortable using them.

But I think there is something here which people dance around, which is that being uncomfortable is not always bad.

Typically, a lot of teen girls are a little uncomfortable in these spaces - it's part and parcel of their changing bodies. If we make an absolute statement that this feeling of being uncomfortable is a sign that it's wrong to ask them to use them, then they are simply going to use the private areas, assume the communal ones are awful, and remain uncomfortable with nudity in these spaces.

But it's often by using these spaces that the realisation occurs that actually, this is not something to worry about, or to make one uncomfortable. Now that such spaces are less common, mostly this happens when someone goes to a place with a different cultural view, or maybe joins a sports team, or the army. And when they have that experience they generally find it very positive and even freeing. But it did involve a certain amount of discomfort at first.

We seem to have changed our social beliefs in a lot of areas toward this idea that discomfort is something that is always to be avoided, but in many cases that's actually debilitating and reinforces and even elevates the discomfort.

I (normally) go swimming regularly and, at 61, I tend to be on the young side for water workout! Most of the women are happy to get changed together and chit chat as they do. Unfortunately I can't join in as I have a stoma and the bag must be changed after swimming.

I agree, OP. So long as there is privacy when required and spaces are single sex. Mixed nudity is a whole other ballgame (no pun intended).

I am genuinely shocked that Changing rooms are still a thing.

What are the personal benefits to having a changing room? No matter who you are.

Seriously.

I prefer communal (single sex) changing areas.
You get more space to move around rather than trying to do everything in the space of a shower cubicle with a tiny bench and one hook for clothes.

@wotapolava What do you mean? You need to change at the pool or gym, surely?

I never use places with communal changing rooms. I just wont buy the product or seek out a better for me facility.

I don’t think we need to necessarily push past discomfort, but I think it’s very important to consider why we feel that way. And I think that indicates what we should do about it.

Discomfort at men in women’s changing rooms - well they commit 98% of all sexual violence so good to go with our gut on that one.

Discomfort at say breastfeeding in public- examine why. Our preferences don’t develop in a vacuum and there’s plenty times that there’s links to inherently harmful ideas underlying it. Like the number of mums I’ve heard saying the bf is private and should be done discreetly, with the implication those of us using breasts for their intended biological purpose without being hyper vigilant about covering every inch of flesh are somehow indiscreet and all that implies.

Typically, a lot of teen girls are a little uncomfortable in these spaces - it's part and parcel of their changing bodies. If we make an absolute statement that this feeling of being uncomfortable is a sign that it's wrong to ask them to use them, then they are simply going to use the private areas, assume the communal ones are awful, and remain uncomfortable with nudity in these spaces.

Except that people have said on this thread that they grew out of the discomfort they felt as a teenage girl. It's normal to feel less self conscious as you grow older.

On the other hand people who argue that all spaces should be mixed do so on the basis that people must just learn to live with their discomfort.

I think that on some issues its more important to respect boundaries than to push people out of their comfort zones, and getting undressed is one of them.