AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

[IWillSqueakAgain]

I know I’m on fwr

This is about SINGLE SEX changing rooms. Not mixed sex, not toilet stalls and so on.

I’m struggling to think of my wording here so thought I’d ask other women who know biology their opinions. I don’t want to put it in aibu because I think too many would deliberately misread it and pile on.

On some of the recent threads a few have brought up single ‘stalls’ and how this should be the norm everywhere.

I think the use of lesbians eying up women or women being scared as they were victims of women and so on are easy to identify false equivalencies to reframe or misdirect the arguement, it’s not difficult to see that bs for what it is. I feel like the idea we should all have single cubicles for all changing is also a form of this misdirection, but I can’t quite articulate it fully and wanted others thoughts.

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false. It’s not just one cubicle for one woman, because we need ones for mother’s with young children and so on, and setting up the space to cater for this means way fewer woman can get changed at the same time.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

I think any adult or child who wants to charge in a cubicle should, their dignity and choice should be catered for also. I’m not saying any single cubicle only spaces should change to have some communal women’s changing areas by any means.

But there are plenty of women’s changing room that are set up to have communal areas as well as some cubicles also. This isn’t new and in my experience is the norm still.

While this is common sense use of space I think there’s knock on benefits of this set up.

Girls grow up in a world that at best portrays women’s bodies as air brushed, enhanced, flawless male fantasy. Often younger generations are exposed to a pornified image of how women should look naked.

Surely it’s not a bad thing for girls/teens/young women to see that women have normal bodies. That we have stretch marks and wobbly bits just like they do. That the image of how women should looked that’s pushed down their throats isn’t at all representative of actual women and that they don’t need to beat themselves up for not looking like those images.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on. Rather than teen girls hitting puberty being humiliated by flooding in public or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds isn’t it a good thing they’ve already seen that this is just part of having a woman’s body and not something us other women feel ashamed of or should be hidden away.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

There’s plenty circumstances in life when women being comfortable being semi naked around other women is beneficial. Giving birth, learning to breastfeed, when we might need personal care with toileting or bathing either due to age or other medical circumstances. It’s a good thing if it’s normal for women to be comfortable with other women before we get to these stages, growing up getting changed around other women is part of that. Not saying it’s the only part of that or that it should be pushed on anyone uncomfortable, but it’s just part of every day life for women ime.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this correctly, but I feel like the idea single cubicles are the perfect solution overlooks the fact that not only are plenty of women fine with communal single sex changing facilities, but that there’s actually a positive effect from them on how we view our bodies and their functions.

Does this make sense to other women here? Is there a better way of explaining this?

I’d avoid communal changing rooms like the plague too. I don't even use ones that only have curtains now. Ive been known to but things, nip to M&S and try them on in their lovely spacious lockable changing rooms then return any I don't like.
I grew up in the age of communal changing rooms. Fine if you’ve got an OK body, nightmare if you haven’t. My daughters are fully aware of what bodies look like as they age, I dont hide it from them.

[quote Sometimesonly]@wotapolava What do you mean? You need to change at the pool or gym, surely?[/quote]
Yes.
Whats the point of communal rooms?

Surely for privacy everyone is entitled to a cubical.

You wouldn't take a shit enmasse in a room would you?
The fights over toilet roll will make for interesting disputes!

A) how much would my gym membership increase by to cover the cost of re-developing the facilities

And yet trans people are constantly told to campaign for third spaces which would require far more re-development. It wouldn't just be your gym membership but council tax too if that was introduced.

Interesting to see Muslim women, so often used as the reason for excluding trans women, happily thrown under a bus by those who want communal spaces which many Muslims can't use.

A unified campaign for single stalls is obviously the way to meet everyone's needs. Curious that so many seem to object.

I haven't used a communal changing room since the early '90s in Topshop. Everyone hated them, so much so that shops brought in cubicles.

It isn’t the way to meet everyone’s needs jj, as so many here seem to be saying.

All communal areas I’ve ever seen always have plenty single cubicles too.

Trans people aren’t told to get third spaces. They are told if you don’t like the men’s you can’t come in women’s. Third spaces or not are your problem to solve, not women’s.

A campaign for single stalls is a red herring, it doesn’t meet everyone’s needs. Women can stick to saying no to males in the females.

Trans people aren’t told to get third spaces. They are told if you don’t like the men’s you can’t come in women’s. Third spaces or not are your problem to solve, not women’s.

Not on here they aren't. Trans people are repeatedly told to campaign for third spaces and concerns about the potential cost and disruption of this are hand waved away.

Third spaces for anyone is not the solution to change rooms is it?

Can anyone tell me what the benefits of having changing rooms are? Just one answer will do.

Then tell me the benefits of having cubicles.
Not those with curtains that don't fit either.

I was getting dressed in a cubicle once and my mate pulled the curtain back on mine to get something.
I carried on getting changed with my back to the entrance and when I went to exit, I realised she hadn't pulled the curtain back.
People were walking past and got an eyeful of me bending over and all!

Too late!

No not on fwr, the thinking within feminism is that we centre females and males can take care of your own problems. AIBU might jump all over yay third spaces, but women’s rights is not about males needs.

Wota cubicles that have no curtains either have gaps under & over through which men can film us. Or they have floor to ceiling partitions that mean when men follow us into to assualt us they can do so confident that people in the next cubicle are much less likely to realise what’s happening and get us help.

Many posters have talked about the benefits of single sex changing rooms. You don’t have to agree but as single sex is the status quo we can say no to your insistence at cubicles only.

Like I said previously I felt cubicles only was a red herring to deflect from women standing by our need and our legal right to single sex spaces. Enough posters here have confirmed that for me.

@IWillSqueakAgain

No not on fwr, the thinking within feminism is that we centre females and males can take care of your own problems. AIBU might jump all over yay third spaces, but women’s rights is not about males needs.

So you oppose third spaces then?

I care about single sex spaces for women remaining single sex.

I don’t care what men do to fix male problems with their single sex spaces. That’s not women’s problem to fix.

@IWillSqueakAgain

I care about single sex spaces for women remaining single sex.

I don’t care what men do to fix male problems with their single sex spaces. That’s not women’s problem to fix.

Well if third spaces were introduced the cost would have to come from somewhere. It's not like council tax is billed according to your sex. Would you be happy to pay any increased costs that might come from third spaces?

A unified campaign for single stalls is obviously the way to meet everyone's needs. Curious that so many seem to object.

If you were genuinely curious you would understand that it is because many women do not feel comfortable changing next to men, but do not want to be in a locked enclosed space where they can't seek help.

I don't mind mixed changing, but over many years on mumsnet, I have at least understood this fact, and I understand that if I expect people to respect my boundaries, I need to respect theirs.

I’ve answered your question already jj. Male problems are for men to fix. Feminism is not for men. You don’t get co opt a thread in fwr for your purpose.

You want to ask about costs for 3rd spaces go create your own thread in the appropriate place. Stop trying to manipulate a women’s thread about a women’s issue.

Oh no I hated communal changing rooms and no I don't want to be used as some sort of exhibit so people know what a 70 year old body looks like.

@IWillSqueakAgain

I’ve answered your question already jj. Male problems are for men to fix. Feminism is not for men. You don’t get co opt a thread in fwr for your purpose.

You want to ask about costs for 3rd spaces go create your own thread in the appropriate place. Stop trying to manipulate a women’s thread about a women’s issue.

Okay, I'm not really interested in arguing about it, I think it's now becoming clear that if trans people did campaign for third spaces then there are at least some in the gender critical movement that would oppose that. And that some GC people will happily throw Muslim women under a bus when it suits them. Duly noted.

@merrymouse

A unified campaign for single stalls is obviously the way to meet everyone's needs. Curious that so many seem to object.

If you were genuinely curious you would understand that it is because many women do not feel comfortable changing next to men, but do not want to be in a locked enclosed space where they can't seek help.

I don't mind mixed changing, but over many years on mumsnet, I have at least understood this fact, and I understand that if I expect people to respect my boundaries, I need to respect theirs.

I learned to swim at an old Victorian swimming pool. Three sides of the walls round the pool were changing cubicles, not flimsy ones but proper brick built ones with wooden doors and no gaps at the top and bottom. When you changed you put your basket of belongings in a locker. It felt safe as the doors were all in public view and the lifeguard could see them.

I prefer communal changing rooms, trying to manoeuvre across the mixed-sex changing area at my local pool to use an individual shower then open a locker then find a cubicle is too awkward under cover of a towel.

Been using the communal ‘ ladies change’ several times a week for twenty years and never seen any evidence of sanitary products (other than in the bin). People use the loo for that.

It’s absolutely not the done thing to look at other people’s genitals. I’m told the men have the same rule.

TitInATrance
I prefer communal changing rooms, trying to manoeuvre across the mixed-sex changing area at my local pool to use an individual shower then open a locker then find a cubicle is too awkward under cover of a towel.

This is my experience too. It's a complete faff.

When it's female only, you don't have to take extra steps to ensure privacy.

Jj stop deliberately misrepresenting what I said.

Go start your own thread and I might consider your question. In fwr you won’t get away with centring males.

If you deliberately misrepresent that as something it’s not then that says everything about how you approach women’s words and nothing about what women have said.

I think it's now becoming clear that if trans people did campaign for third spaces then there are at least some in the gender critical movement that would oppose that

No, some women (regardless of whether they a have a clue what gender critical means), would still want single sex spaces. It doesn't have to be either or. My local council leisure centre is nothing special and it has both.

@IWillSqueakAgain

Jj stop deliberately misrepresenting what I said.

Go start your own thread and I might consider your question. In fwr you won’t get away with centring males.

If you deliberately misrepresent that as something it’s not then that says everything about how you approach women’s words and nothing about what women have said.

But you said this in your op

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false.

Surely this applies even more to third spaces. So you might say it's for men to sort out, but you appear to object to this kind of redevelopment based on cost and space. So if 'men' sort out third spaces and that carrieda cost presumably you'd object.

It certainly doesn;t fill me with any confidence that if trans people campaign for third spaces, something I've been told should happen countless times on FWR then that would have be widely supported by the GC movement.

As much as we all love another installment of JJ and the whataboutery, wasn't the wonderful idea of Stonewall applying for dosh for the purpose of specific spaces for trans people suggested yesterday?
Go on JJ, stop faffing about on here and get on with it.

That sounds lovely @ancientgran