AIBU to think there’s benefits to communal changing rooms

[IWillSqueakAgain]

I know I’m on fwr

This is about SINGLE SEX changing rooms. Not mixed sex, not toilet stalls and so on.

I’m struggling to think of my wording here so thought I’d ask other women who know biology their opinions. I don’t want to put it in aibu because I think too many would deliberately misread it and pile on.

On some of the recent threads a few have brought up single ‘stalls’ and how this should be the norm everywhere.

I think the use of lesbians eying up women or women being scared as they were victims of women and so on are easy to identify false equivalencies to reframe or misdirect the arguement, it’s not difficult to see that bs for what it is. I feel like the idea we should all have single cubicles for all changing is also a form of this misdirection, but I can’t quite articulate it fully and wanted others thoughts.

So firstly the idea that it’s easy or an economical use of space to turn all communal changing rooms into single cubicles is false. It’s not just one cubicle for one woman, because we need ones for mother’s with young children and so on, and setting up the space to cater for this means way fewer woman can get changed at the same time.

This aside, I think there’s something normal and healthy about girls/adolescents seeing the reality of women’s biology.

I think any adult or child who wants to charge in a cubicle should, their dignity and choice should be catered for also. I’m not saying any single cubicle only spaces should change to have some communal women’s changing areas by any means.

But there are plenty of women’s changing room that are set up to have communal areas as well as some cubicles also. This isn’t new and in my experience is the norm still.

While this is common sense use of space I think there’s knock on benefits of this set up.

Girls grow up in a world that at best portrays women’s bodies as air brushed, enhanced, flawless male fantasy. Often younger generations are exposed to a pornified image of how women should look naked.

Surely it’s not a bad thing for girls/teens/young women to see that women have normal bodies. That we have stretch marks and wobbly bits just like they do. That the image of how women should looked that’s pushed down their throats isn’t at all representative of actual women and that they don’t need to beat themselves up for not looking like those images.

Isn’t it a good thing that growing up girls see that there are times other women have blood on their pants, tampon string hanging out, breasts needing rearranging in their bras and so on. Rather than teen girls hitting puberty being humiliated by flooding in public or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds isn’t it a good thing they’ve already seen that this is just part of having a woman’s body and not something us other women feel ashamed of or should be hidden away.

I think there’s something about insisting single cubicles should be the norm and meets all our needs overlooks the image it sends of women’s bodies needing to be hidden, when there’s plenty reasonable circumstances when among women only it’s entirely normal to not ‘hide’ our bodies.

There’s plenty circumstances in life when women being comfortable being semi naked around other women is beneficial. Giving birth, learning to breastfeed, when we might need personal care with toileting or bathing either due to age or other medical circumstances. It’s a good thing if it’s normal for women to be comfortable with other women before we get to these stages, growing up getting changed around other women is part of that. Not saying it’s the only part of that or that it should be pushed on anyone uncomfortable, but it’s just part of every day life for women ime.

I’m not sure I’m expressing this correctly, but I feel like the idea single cubicles are the perfect solution overlooks the fact that not only are plenty of women fine with communal single sex changing facilities, but that there’s actually a positive effect from them on how we view our bodies and their functions.

Does this make sense to other women here? Is there a better way of explaining this?

None of us watch other women while we are getting changed, but none of us get changed with our eyes closed either or our eyes shamefully averted.

The standard I aim for and expect of others is politely averted. Again, there are plenty of imperfect people on every British beach and in every British swimming pool.

Interesting question OP.

The more I thought about it, the more I realised that, when it was the norm (lots more mixed-sex cubicles these days) I actually enjoyed the easiness of pootling around in a female-only, all shapes and sizes, all ages space. Didn't need to keep my swimsuit on when showering, didn't need to squish me and the kids in a small cubicle and try to get everyone dressed without dropping dry clothes on the wet floor, and yes, it was cheering to register, however obliquely, that none of us had perfect bodies.

Used to go swimming with a gaggle of women for a while; the chat in the changing room was a real laugh and other women would often join in. I miss all that.

So yes, cubicles for those who want them but here's a vote for communal spaces too.

@deydododatdodontdeydo

You don't need to see people naked to see their different bodies. Any pool or beach you will see the full range of female (and male) body shapes in their swimming costumes. Having said that, I'm not against communal changing rooms. I've always been a bit shy, so use a cubicle if I can. I have no desire to see naked bodies, young or old.

Exactly. This idea that no one knows what a "normal" body looks like unless it's naked is nonsense.

I have no desire to see naked bodies. In fact a busy communal mixed changing room would be no worse or no better than a communal single sex one.

Idrather - again never said anyone should use communal or that it was a resolution to anything.

I used to work with a girl who nicknamed a friend of hers Tammy from her not noticing her tampon string was hanging out when they stripped to underwear to run in the sea one drunken night.

Maybe I’m super clumsy or poorly coordinated but I’ve frequently pulled up my knickers and had it hanging out & needed to adjust. Pretty sure any woman changing beside me is aware of what I’m fixing.

On the aibu thread on this I said that I am not ok with men witnessing me tuck in tampon string, adjust boobs in bra, change bloody pants, drip milk and so on in a post about not caring if other women might glance this. A few said good post and several said they agreed so I’m guessing I’m no where near the only woman whose fixed a tampon string in the women’s change room or caught a glimpse of other women adjusting pads or so on. I’m not terribly observant generally speaking, I’m a head in the clouds type, so I’m sure many other women see more than I might have. Either way doesn’t much matter because it’s stuff all women might well need to do & it’s no big deal because it’s just life. There should always be cubicles for those who need them but for those ok with female only area it’s not a bad thing that girls see periods are just a normal part of life to other women, not something they need to be ashamed of.

Please don’t misrepresent what I’ve said.

Apologies if that is how my post came across.

My main point is that communal changing rooms are really only beneficial to people who like communal changing rooms. There is nothing wrong with preferring communal changing rooms - I just don't think they have a wider benefit to society beyond being more practical in a small space.

The thing is that the ideal is that there's choice, communal single sex but also including ample family group spaces for those who have opposite sex children, caring for those with disabilities, even couples who forgot to bring two shampoos! Trans people can use these individual cabins.

I know not everywhere can offer a choice, but we can start with mandating minimum standards for new facilities and those being refurbished thoroughly.

I've been in communal changing and a person with male organs walked past naked (but full make up and feminine hair style) and I was uncomfortable, not threatened just unnerved - my then 7 year old dd thought the man was lost, innocence.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.
When I was younger (and slimmer and fitter) I was also incredibly self conscious. Would only get changed in a cubicle.
But over the years, and going to gyms and pools with female friends I have changed. Being around other women who were more chilled about communal changing made me more relaxed too. I've never been made to feel uncomfortable or watched by another woman. Yes, you can see people in your peripheral vision but it's not really looking, you're just getting on with changing.
So, I think being in a place that you feel safe and comfortable, can allow you to use a communal space with confidence, there will always be a need for more private changing for some and anyone using those shouldn't feel judged or marginalised.
Women and girls have enough barriers to overcome to engage in sports activities, so poor changing facilities shouldn't be added to that.
As an aside, the only changing areas I have felt uncomfortable in are unisex changing'villages' - cubicles but mixed sex. My local pool has a perpetual problem with pervs trying to take photos under the doors. Another similar place I took my young DD to, the staff advised me basically to stand guard by the door due to problems with men trying to take photos.

@IWillSqueakAgain

Idrather - again never said anyone should use communal or that it was a resolution to anything.

I used to work with a girl who nicknamed a friend of hers Tammy from her not noticing her tampon string was hanging out when they stripped to underwear to run in the sea one drunken night.

Maybe I’m super clumsy or poorly coordinated but I’ve frequently pulled up my knickers and had it hanging out & needed to adjust. Pretty sure any woman changing beside me is aware of what I’m fixing.

On the aibu thread on this I said that I am not ok with men witnessing me tuck in tampon string, adjust boobs in bra, change bloody pants, drip milk and so on in a post about not caring if other women might glance this. A few said good post and several said they agreed so I’m guessing I’m no where near the only woman whose fixed a tampon string in the women’s change room or caught a glimpse of other women adjusting pads or so on. I’m not terribly observant generally speaking, I’m a head in the clouds type, so I’m sure many other women see more than I might have. Either way doesn’t much matter because it’s stuff all women might well need to do & it’s no big deal because it’s just life. There should always be cubicles for those who need them but for those ok with female only area it’s not a bad thing that girls see periods are just a normal part of life to other women, not something they need to be ashamed of.

I'm finding your obsession with tampon strings pretty weird to be honest. I'm also pondering which brand of tampon has these excessively long strings.

I've been using gyms since my early 20s and every single one has been communal with no private cubicles at all. The gyms I've been to have tended to be based in the city, catering for professionals who might go before or after work or on their lunch hour. Generally, the age range has been 20s-30s, though you sometimes have older people in there.

I am not an exhibitionist. I have never and would never go topless on the beach. I wouldn't change in public under a towel. The first couple of times I had to use a communal changing room at a gym, I felt awkward, mainly because I was self-conscious about my body.

But I got used to it. And actually, being surrounded by women of various shapes and sizes, helped my confidence. I discovered that my thighs were not elephantine lumps, but actually fairly average. That even very fit and slender women have cellulite. I've seen scars from c-sections. It has been useful, in a way. (I've never seen a tampon string because I really don't look that closely!) My friend from Scandinavia says that people are more relaxed about nudity over there, and they don't have the same levels of eating disorders as here.

However, I would not feel comfortable changing in the presence of a male, no matter how they identify. I would leave the gym.

As for making all changing rooms cubicles... well, my concern is twofold. Firstly, it will be costly and time-consuming to change the entire changing area. Who will pay for that? Me through my gym membership? Also, it would lead to less changing space overall.

Secondly, I have felt more confident about my body from communal changing. This would probably be denied to other women in their early 20s.

I must say, I'm very glad that shops have moved away from communal changing areas.

Umbel I agree that it’s not just changing rooms (I did say that in the op).

I only had my mum at home. Periods were a shameful thing, but also one I was expected to get on with normal life despite (no time off pe etc-despite how dangerously ill I was with them). And I didn’t have other women in m family. I had a lot of close female friends as a teen and normal every day things like changing in the same room or being ok grabbing tampax out of their bag helped normalise a lot of that stuff for me the way other women might get from other female family members.

My daughters only have me in their family as the only women. They are still the kind of girls who sit on the edge of the bath when I’m in there, they do that to each other too, but otherwise they don’t see normal female bodies. We’ve spent years attending swimming pools where they’d be in the female changing room with me. So I just think it’s not a bad thing that’s a positive offshoot of that.

I get it OP. I grew up in a somewhat prudish environment, we contorted ourselves under towels and were embarrassed about everything.
Even at the Uni gym (90s) we walked to the shower in a towel and showered behind the curtain, I used to bring my knickers in and put them on when still damp as it was awkward to get them on in the communal area discreetly!

When I started playing rugby in a different country in my 20s we all stripped off and showered together, I had no problem with it for myself, the previous efforts to conform were to avoid outraging others' decency IYKWIM.

We were all shapes and sizes and you would see the occasional tampon string, yes, not to mention piercings, scars, bruises, the works.

Members of one team is of course still different to the public swimming pool, but where I am now it's also the done thing to strip off fully and some leisure centre showers have a single-sex room with open showers and one shower cubicle in the corner.

When it suits I do go in there with my daughter and she has the option of showering in her swimsuit or going in the cubicle if she likes but I do think the normalization of women's bodies is healthier than how things were in my day!

I would be grateful for more private cubicles. I hate communal changing rooms, always have done, and won’t use one if I can avoid it. My local gym only has this, and I prefer to shower and change at home. It’s just a cheap option for most providers.

I am comfortable with my body and those of others, I’m a very normal, slightly saggy nearly 50 year old, but also very private about changing and have no desire to let it all hang out. I can see different body types in the gym and pool anyway, no need for further details about who has scars or unusual pigmentation etc.

Tofu seperate cubicles either have some space under where people can still take photos, only without other women around to witness it and call them out.

Or they have no space top to bottom. In which case they can leave women, girls especially or physically weaker women due to disability like me, at greater risk if men force their way in behind us and close the floor to ceiling door and no one knows what’s happening.

I think pp had a really good point about a younger girl changing in cubicle or communal area where there will be groups of other women around would be more safe than in arrangements of only seperate cubicles had a good point.

If my girls were going to get changed on their own, I’d feel more confident they’d be safe if there’s lots of other women around to see anything that poses a risk and to help when they do see that. Whether my girls went in the cubicles in our women’s only changing or used the communal part of it. I’m sure my girls would feel safer to ask for help with only women around also.

I’d rather single sex changing with some communal/some cubicles to what a pool near me has, which is mixed sex with cubicles but nowhere near enough, leaving people standing around wet waiting to grab the next cubicle before anyone else does. Eventually desperate people get changed in the walkways while maintaining as much dignity as possible.

By choice I’d go in a cubicle, but my priority is usually to just get me & the kids dry and out of there.

Land is expensive, and therefore city centre/urban facilities in particular will always need an element of communal changing, which is why it must be single sex.

A lot of the benefits you speak of though could actually be gained through better means. So giving young girls a more realistic view of real bodies? While the media continues with a narrow view of how women look and as long as violent porn is so easily accessed by anyone with a device, seeing my bits swinging away in a changing room ain't going to make much difference

And I really can't see how communal changing rooms will help regards periods and the mess that goes with them.

Yes, I know precisely what you mean. I've certainly never consciously or deliberately looked at other women in the gym changing room but inevitably you do see other women's bodies in there and I have found it very reassuring at certain times in my life to see different body shapes, cellulite, older bodies, lumps and bumps and all the rest of it.

I wouldn't have chosen communal changing if cubicles had been on offer but I was surprised by just how much of an effect it had on me and how different it was from how I am used to seeing women's bodies otherwise (largely in the media). I'm not just saying that to get a dig in at how women are portrayed - it genuinely did make me almost double take as reality was so different to what I'm used to seeing when seeing women's bodies (which is quite sad).

I also don't go flashing my bits about ostentatiously in the changing room but would be perfectly comfortable with another woman finding a similar comfort from the bits of me she may chance to see while I'm changing!

I don't think it's overstating it to say that there's a certain feeling of solidarity and defiance against the world in it!

That said I also completely agree that that's not for everyone and that many people would want and would use cubicles, which is absolutely fine. But personally I do quite value female-only communal spaces like that now.

I don't really have a larger point other than to say I hear you and don't think you're at all weird!

I hate communal changing rooms and actively avoided places that only have them to change in.

Tellme I think Barrak point about safety can’t be achieved by other means.

Like I said in op I’m not suggesting this is the only way these benefits can be brought about or the reason behind communal changing rooms or that any single cubicle only chsngeing rooms should be altered at all.

I just think often on threads about women’s changing area the argument is given that seperate cubicles for all is the only way to meet everyone’s needs is a fallacy. Not as easy to indentify as the false equivalency of ‘women are sex offenders too’ or ‘but lesbians women might eye you up’ crap that’s tooted by the twaw so shut up and move over crowd, but I do think it’s fallacy all the same as there’s benefits to some communal single sex spaces and individual cubicles don’t perfectly meet all needs.

I agree as well. I'm generally uncomfortable changing around people, and find the total unselfconsciousness of some women disarming. I wouldn't, for example, stand and apply body lotion to my entire naked body in a changing room, and was taken aback by the woman who did.

However I have become more at ease with my body as it has aged, and I suspect it's from going to the gym and pool and seeing other people are neither interested nor concerned.

I suspect women who have always done sport are not self conscious.

I agree that the cubicles are more likely to get messy, harder to clean, and often uncomfortably small.

Fully enclosed cubicles would probably feel unsafe and attract undesirable behaviour. Better than partial enclosure in a mixed area though.

Someone mentioned Swedish women?

Yy. I shared halls at uni with a Finnish girl, two Germans, a French girl and just one other Scot. Two toilets in seperate stalls. One shower that opened onto the large sink area, the only sink area, with the mirror, shelves, space we used to hang up clothes by the radiator. It was very normal for one to be showering and others in brushing teeth, washing faces, shaving legs against the sink- one shower for 6 doesn’t leave much time- and they were way more relaxed about being semi naked than I’d grew up with. We only had sanpro bins in the toilets, not in the actual shower area so the regular open bin frequently had used sanpro visable. This was very different to how I’d grown up and really very valuable imho. Seeing that women’s bodies weren’t anything to be ashamed of or uncomfortable about was healthy.

Before this a couple of female friends who went to boarding schools were a similarly positive influence.

And similar background, prudish mother. Everything about bodies embarrassed the hell out of me.

Iceland you have to shower naked before using the pool/spa. Mortifying. So hard.

I'm amazed at the OP has to see other women naked to realise most people have cellulite or most bodies aren't perfect.

Does the OP live in a particularly strict Muslim community and when she goes swimming does she use a Victorian horse drawn bathing cart to take her out to sea away from prying eyes? Because otherwise I can't imagine how this would be unknown.

or being embarrassed by how opening a pad sounds

A sound which seems to obsess some on here- I'm not following the OP's logic here- are women going to be changing tampons and pads in the open communal area? If not is the sound of saying opening a packet of tissues or a new pair of tights in a cubicle audibly different?

A mix of communal and cubicles if space allows would be the ideal set up in my opinion - I have used both types of changing areas in gyms at various points in my life.

Funnily enough, when I was a lot younger and was in a lot better shape, I would go into a cubicle. Now that I am in my 50s, I don't really care who catches a glimpse of my very much less than perfect body - in a female only space.

I woult not want to change in a communal area with any male person (other than DH) for privacy and dignity reasons. In other words, I know that my FIL, BIL, uncles, male friends etc are no threat to me in any way, nor do I think they would try to cop an eyeful, but I still would not want want them in a communal changing room with me.

As mad as it sounds, to me there is a different atmosphere in a female only spaces. (I used to go to a yoga class, and the times when a (perfectly pleasant, non threatening) man joined the class the atmosphere felt completely different)

I can see your point but some women being fine with communal changing doesn't mean that the other women have to be.

I think this sums it up pretty neatly, and I suspect that the vast, vast majority of teenage girls (and most women on their own with no small child) would always choose a cubicle if there were enough cubicles to ensure one was always available. So in practice the 'it's good for them to see other women's bodies' would often really be forcing them to do so rather than allowing them to choose.