Dickpandering in feminism

[SwearyWhitehouse]

Is anyone else a bit nonplussed at this? Feminism is surely by women and for women. In order for it to have any hope of succeeding it must centre women and be women led. We keep saying that men cannot come into women’s spaces, even if they identify as women, yet we seem to be championing men who do the bare minimum or who speak over the top of talented, diligent, hardworking women and take all the credit. Who silence women using block lists or by muscling them out of groups for disagreeing with them or pointing out that theyre speaking for women rather than elevating our voices.

Why is Glinner, for example, being lauded for writing a piece on Challenor when women shared all that information months ago? He’s busy kicking women out of working groups whilst taking credit for their work. If he called himself a woman whilst doing this we’d have no truck with it.

Just because these men don’t claim womanhood doesn’t mean they’re not infiltrating women’s spaces. We need to pay attention.

So you're making the point again that this board isn't suitable for those of us who aren't part of the original group who started this board

I certainly didn't say that

no-one has a right to feel welcome everywhere all the time. I believe this is a central tenet of being gender critical?

If you come to a board called feminist chat and post stuff that isn't feminist, you'll get comments. that's all.

Does anyone else get irritated by posters who say that they aren't feminists tho'?

On a feminist board.

In fact when a poster says it again and again (and again) I start to think they're just taking the piss.

Or is it just me?

(Sorry if this point has already been made, but this thread is so long..)

I get put off by the sort of feminism that has a utopian vision of a world without men.

Some feminists have this vision, I personally don't. I confess I don't mind the odd man on an individual level. They can make me laugh.

I think the feminist vision you're talking about is men living on the fringes, but still not too far away that we can't keep an eye on what they're up to.

At any rate the purists and utopians don't put me off feminism at all, they make me more fascinated by it. I don't agree with everything they say.

I certainly don't think we should make feminism more dickpleasing. That gets us nowhere. As a general rule if a man thinks your feminism is okay, you're definitely doing it wrong

As a general rule if a man thinks your feminism is okay, you're definitely doing it wrong

this!

Does anyone else get irritated by posters who say that they aren't feminists tho'?

I find it so weird that when I make a feminist point on here it is scrutinized to the death and results in the declaration that I can't be taken seriously because I'm not a feminist , "just" a manhater.

Go and post the most benign feminist opinion on some mainstream board and watch the accusations of manhater pile up.

Even saying porn is wrong can get you this accusation.

Even just begin a lesbian can get you this accusation.

What does being a manhater even mean?

But people are feeling unwelcome here and it’s here, this public forum on mumsnet, we’re talking about not whatever external groups with strictly delineated criteria for membership you are also a part of. If you’re going to insist that here we all fit neatly into whatever feminist-shaped box you deem the correct one before we’re allowed in then you’re going to very rapidly find yourself back with your “tiny tiny group fighting back against the genderists”.

I think another poster had it right when she said she believed FWR meant For Women’s Rights, see, by the same token, I understood it was Feminism and Women’s Rights; the ‘and’ told me it was not just for self-described hardest of hardcore feminists but also for anyone else with any pretensions to feminist thinking or those just interested in fighting for women’s rights in one or two given areas.

You don’t have to like it but again you don’t get to decide for here, in this space and at this time, who is shoehorned in.

Not answering my question.

MagneticSingularity

I'm pretty new on here and due to the almost universal accusations of being a man hater as well as all the other personal attacks I've experienced over the past week, along with prayers of deliverance (from Jesus? Who knows?) and the sincere hope I will overcome my man hating and get to a "better place" where I have less hate in my heart ( at which point I couldn't tell if it was Jesus or patriarchal psychologists who were supposed to lead me to deliverance), I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I don't really feel welcome here.
I'm going to stick it out a bit longer

I don't think most posters do come on here and say they are not feminists though. They might say things you interpret as not being feminist, or not being feminist enough.
Probably most of us are not feminist enough. I used to peep in here in the dittany/buffy/LRD days and say nowt because there was so much theory and nitpicking and interesting as it was it didn't seem to have much to do with the price of fish eg the real world. I am very much a feninist, even, I have learned, a radical one in the sense that I have always felt women were playing with the deck pre stacked against us. But I make plenty of non feminist choices. On threads where women go on about just how much they hate make up and heels etc, I think how much I enjoy those things. Most of us can't acheive feminist purity in all things.
I can appreciate it is frustrating when women are seen to be giving men's views more weight. And yes, there's nothing wrong with pointing that out if that's how you feel, but at the end of the day it's all a bit beside the point right now.

There's a hundred battles to be fought before the war is won and worrying about "dickpandering" doesn't seem to me to be a key battle tbh.
To my mind one if the best things to come out of this whole gender thing is precisely the fact that women of all kinds are getting together to talk about women's rights.
If we can't protect the right to define female we have no feminism to argue over so let's please welcome all voices supporting that notion, because every other idea about women's rights starts from there.

HorsewithnoRegretsNonJeNeRegret

Does anyone else get irritated by posters who say that they aren't feminists tho'?

On a feminist board

You are making the assumption that this board is only intended for posters who are uncritical of feminist theory. It doesn't say that. It is for the discussion of feminism. That includes the view that there may be aspects of feminism which are problematic.

I get irritated by the assumption that one has to declare as a feminist before one may express an opinion on issues which affect women and society. Particularly when there is so much squabbling about who is and isn't a feminist.

But people are feeling unwelcome here

in the nicest possible way, I'm not convinced that's a problem

posting here is not compulsory.

If you’re going to insist that here we all fit neatly into whatever feminist-shaped box you deem the correct one before we’re allowed in

nope, you can post what you like, no-one can stop you posting here apart from MNHQ but if you post stuff that's not feminist people will pick up on that. If you wonder why, check the title of the board at the top of the page.

LassOfFyvie

As I said you can put pay to the squabbling of who and who isn't a feminist simply by measuring how acceptable to men your points of views are.

It really is that simple

I used to peep in here in the dittany/buffy/LRD days and say nowt because there was so much theory and nitpicking and interesting as it was it didn't seem to have much to do with the price of fish eg the real world

this is me too IfNot. I joined MN 7 years ago and have heard pretty much constantly since then that MN is going downhill, it's not like it used to be etc. Well in the case of this board I completely disagree. I think this place is amazing, non feminists and all. It's never been better in my view

I think dickpandering is an excellent feminist term, and as useful as the term mansplaining.

There's no reason to be insulted by this term.

I find it so weird that when I make a feminist point on here it is scrutinized to the death and results in the declaration that I can't be taken seriously because I'm not a feminist , "just" a manhater

I disagree with pretty much everything you post. I do however think that just saying you (specific you to be clear) "isn't a feminist" isn't a particularly good refutation of why your views.

I disagree with pretty much everything you post.

Men must love you then Lass, because I know for a fact they can't stand me

As I said you can put pay to the squabbling of who and who isn't a feminist simply by measuring how acceptable to men your points of views are

It's not for me to determine which of you and another particular poster who have been calling each other as not being feminists on a couple of threads.

I have zero interest in whether someone is or isn't a feminist. It makes no difference to the respect or otherwise I will give to their opinion.

Arguing between ourselves about the correct amount of homage a penis is owed - however worthy the bloody penis - is the least feminist thing I can imagine.

A pretty reductive and dismissive way to sum up all of what’s been said here but I guess it’s been a useful exercise, as in it’s successfully sorted the dickpanderers from the feminists; the ongoing discussion about how we address rubbing along with the various ill-assorted GC thinking factions around here can probably wait for another day.

I must miss all the I'm not a feminist but... stuff. Lass aside, of course . It's the I'm GC but... ones that boil my piss.

Look, I don't give a fuck for a precise definition of dick pandering. Neither do I give much of a fuck if women insist on doing it - or not doing it, depending on boring arguments about the precise definition - on here.

I do give a fuck that women are told they're not being sufficiently kind, nice or welcoming when they point out what they perceive as dick pandering. That's fucking annoying and about as far from feminist as you can possibly get.

If you're telling other women to be more kind and a bloke is at the root of it: give your head a wobble.

You are making the assumption that this board is only intended for posters who are uncritical of feminist theory. It doesn't say that. It is for the discussion of feminism. That includes the view that there may be aspects of feminism which are problematic.

Yes I'd agree with this.

My post was more of a plea to stay on topic rather than to exclude anyone from the discussion, whatever their views.

Not even that really - just an observation that FWR has drifted a bit off topic lately, to a broader GC theme - how and why that happened, what the implications are.

Maybe everyone else is fine with that in which case, fair enough.

But for as long as it says FWR or Feminist Chat at the top of the screen I won't stop discussing feminist concepts such as dickpandering the socialised tendency of women (and other men) to prioritise the needs, wants and voices of males over females.

Magnetic I think all feminists should feel welcome to post.

I think there are sometimes differing views on what topics qualify as feminist. Person A might think X is, but person B does not.

If B then tells A, “erm, wtf, we have non-feminists posting here now?” A will feel unwelcome.

Pencils or anyone ... should stuff which is GC but not feminist go into Politics? (I thought that’s what Pencils said upthread... I’m new and won’t be offended)

X posted with you Pencils

I have zero interest in whether someone is or isn't a feminist. It makes no difference to the respect or otherwise I will give to their opinion.

No but you keep repeating that feminism isn't real and doesn't exist , there's no definition and so on. It's eerily similar to what the trans do about the word "woman"

So as I say , as a rule of thumb, if men are okay with what you're saying then you're probably not feministing right.

And I know for a fact men hate my guts for my opinions...

And you disagree with everything I say...

I guess it’s been a useful exercise, as in it’s successfully sorted the dickpanderers from the feminists;

Can you point us towards those you consider to be dickpanderers on this thread? That could be helpful.

I think it would be helpful to have more of the discussions posted across the site where appropriate, just to reach a wider audience and broaden the discussion. Lots of people have feminism hidden (and tell us so at every opportunity )

Sometimes threads are posted in AIBU but you've got to be quite brave to do that!

just scrolling down the list of topics, I can think of hypothetical threads that would be good in loads of them.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk

(click A-Z for the full list)