Dickpandering in feminism

[SwearyWhitehouse]

Is anyone else a bit nonplussed at this? Feminism is surely by women and for women. In order for it to have any hope of succeeding it must centre women and be women led. We keep saying that men cannot come into women’s spaces, even if they identify as women, yet we seem to be championing men who do the bare minimum or who speak over the top of talented, diligent, hardworking women and take all the credit. Who silence women using block lists or by muscling them out of groups for disagreeing with them or pointing out that theyre speaking for women rather than elevating our voices.

Why is Glinner, for example, being lauded for writing a piece on Challenor when women shared all that information months ago? He’s busy kicking women out of working groups whilst taking credit for their work. If he called himself a woman whilst doing this we’d have no truck with it.

Just because these men don’t claim womanhood doesn’t mean they’re not infiltrating women’s spaces. We need to pay attention.

Who gives a fuck what Harrop et al think. Not shying away from disagreement and discussion about the direction of a movement IS the better side. Better than TRAs just pretending that anything that doesn't fit their narrative doesn't exist, hence the current silence on Yaniv for example.

No one has to click on a thread title that doesn’t interest them. There are loads I ignore in FWR. Others where I click pretty certain i’ll be disagreeing with OP but am interested to debate the issue. Many more where I think I have something to learn or perhaps to offer.

It’s the feminist section of MN and I want to be able to discuss all issues feminists are experiencing. Personally I don’t click on those where fellow feminists are being criticised but as long as no-one makes me join in then I can live and let live.

It’s weird that this issue elicits such a knee jerk response. (And amusingly, of both “don’t talk about it in public” and “how dare things be discussed in private groups” )

I don't know how we have this conversation without other women feeling attacked though?

I know it’s not you doing it Orchid and not Sweary either, but I think not calling each other ‘poppet’ would be a good start

But yes, I try to avoid dick pandering. I love glinners work, and read the article and thought it was great. But I posted about that on a thread started by another woman, not the one glinner started. Cos as Lang said upthread, blokes are gonna bloke on you but you don’t have to go along with it

I would have thought that any cause is better with as wide a spectrum of people supporting it as possible.

For example when Stella Creasey launched the cross- party initiative on abortion rights for women in NI, 2 supporters , whom I initially found surprising were Andrea Leadsom and Tory grandee Sir Peter Bottomley. And then I thought, well why would they not think about this and come to the same conclusion as me? They aren't the usual suspects but that's to the good.

As for "fawning" I don't see thanks being expressed any differently than thanks being given to women. I wonder how many "fawning" threads and posts there have been about the OP?

It’s more the rank hypocrisy of being in a private group with a man and then accusing others of being the ones pandering to him.

I think the problem here is there are lots of people who want to discuss the point ‘how far into feminist organisation should men be allowed?’. I’d like to talk about that

And then there are lots of people who want to continue some sort of spat, which is probably linked to that point, but most of us know nothing about and heartily wish not to get involved in

I'd also like to discuss the first point Bernard :) I have no idea about the second one but some people seem determined to cause beef

Isn’t that up to individual women’s groups? Some will want to organise with men and some won’t.

Oh yes

But we see again and again that when you let men in they take over

I think if you’re doing feminism men should be making the tea and sandwiches if they’re involved at all

I’m not completely convinced this is 100% feminism though

If someone wants to talk about men in feminism they should go for it. If someone thinks people are fawning, well maybe better to put it a bit differently but talk about it. "Dickpandering" is likely to get a bad response.

But it's annoying to presume that your perception is correct. I don't post any articles here, and I would say a lot more are posted by women and more women writers are talked about and have what you might call fans. And a lot more men are targeted for being shits.

The only difference I see with certain men is people say that they may reach another audience, or might comment that they are unexpected supporters.

Maybe my perception is biased, I'm not noticing what I don't expect, or don't care about. But it's no more likely to be biased than someone who is primed to notice nice comments about men and call them dickpandering. If you are asking someone to consider they might be biased you'd better be willing to check your own.

No, it isn’t.

There are plenty of people who aren’t feminists but still don’t want a whole load of women’s rights to be ripped up and stomped on.

Also with children. This has a huge impact on children, and many people will care about kids but not be bothered about women.

I’m not completely convinced this is 100% feminism though

However you define gender, it’s based on misogyny - and ‘gender equality’ is a complete oxymoron. What we need is gender abolition (gender - not biological sex).

I don't have understand the bickering. Glinner says he didn't block Dr EM. I don't know how twitter groups work but if it's just a private chat then it's not like being locked out of the office.

I think plenty of women get plenty of thanks. Joanna Cherry, Joan McAlpine, Sharron Davies have all had universal adulation. All the amazing academics have said they've been sent flowers and cards. People have turned out to support Linda Bellos and others in court. Woman's Place meetings are packed. Janice Turner and Julie Bindel's articles are widely shared and praised.

Yes of course I'm sure we could do more but to characterise thanking the high profile men who speak up as dickpandering seems a tad far fetched.

Surely Challenor is not an exclusively feminist issue, isn't it an issue for any decent human being?

Someone who is high profile will obviously get more response than someone who is less so. So shouldn't we be looking at how to raise the profile of prominent feminists in productive ways, and the messages they want to convey to a wider audeince, rather than worrying about who gets the most rts on twitter?

I'd love to really understand what you are saying about the block list thing, do you have some full info on that please?

I think people go a bit starry eyed with glinner cos he’s an actual celeb. Muddies the waters a bit

I suspect if (say) Phoebe Waller Bridge posted here there’d be a fair bit of fawning

Surely Challenor is not an exclusively feminist issue, isn't it an issue for any decent human being?

I would think it is a fairly significant issue for anyone with an interest in party politics.

I don't think men should be involved in feminist groups as a rule. But when you move beyond group meetings to actions etc having men on board seems reasonable, I think of it more as how to move the levers of power to take things to the next stage. I tend to think long term strategy.
No that does not mean men fronting meetings, drawing up agendas etc
However this particular issue needs all hands on board, and where children are concerned men have an absolute right to fully engage. I just don't think acting like they should know their place is a good look or fair. And we should be using their ability to reach where feminists can't.

I'm not sure what the point of feminism is if it's not to change society, and men have to be included and persuaded.

All this trans shit is being played out in my own life - with huge consequences for me and my family. It's real and it's nightmarish and scary as fuck.

I honestly don't know where I'd be without the FWR board, and I've learnt so much from reading and lurking and chipping in occasionally.

As a result of everything that's gone on over the past 2 years, I've centred women in my heart and thoughts in a new way - and it's been wonderful.

What's been exposed to me as a result of having my daughter be eaten alive by the ideology of genderism has been terrifying. The things I've learnt and seen and know now could make me hate and fear and loathe men.

But I have to control those feelings because most men are okay, and some men are fine and a few men that I know are wonderful.

I won't be made bitter and less than I should be because of the vile behaviour of some men. That would be handing them my power.

I thanked Glinner today - I thought it was an excellent article and wanted to say so.

When I feel moved to do so I thank people for what they're doing: maybe I'm not a good enough feminist, but I don't care if they're women or men, young or old, left or right.

I thank them because this is real for me, it's my daughter's life at stake, and I'm so grateful that people are standing up, taking action, speaking, writing, calling it out.

But even if my own child can't come back from this and I never see her again maybe, just maybe, the actions of all you wonderful people will help someone else's daughter return.

So thanks Sweary, thanks Pique Resilience, thanks Ben, thanks Rosa, thanks Julia, thanks Glinner, thanks Miranda, thanks Posie, thanks Fionne, thanks Langcleg, thanks David Bell, thanks Rowantrees, thanks Marcus Evans, thanks Stella O'Malley, thanks Linda Bellos, thanks William Malone, thanks Peachyogurt, thanks Benjamin Boyce, thanks Hacsi Horvath, thanks Marcus Evans, thanks Kirsty Entwistle, thank you EVERYONE.

@SisterWendyBuckett

That's a good list.

What sister Wendy said 👆💪

I don't know how we have this conversation without other women feeling attacked though?

Don't call women dickpanderers?
I'm new to this conversation and really feminism as a whole, I have questioned so much about myself/society through this and happy to have those sometimes difficult conversations, how I think, what I wear, do I listen more to men? etc. This just sounds like a personal dispute and trying to get people to turn against an individual.
Since becoming aware of the issues, all the books I read, the majority of articles and the vast majority of people I follow and promote online are women, but acknowledging a man who has had personal costs (as have many women) and who is high profile so can bring different people into conversation is dickpanderering?

There are loads of them who agree with the Gender Critical position - but that is all. They are not feminists because they can’t be

Talking about men as a whole class in the third person in this way is not helpful.

For me feminism means life viewed through a female perspective; valuing the feminine; along with the call to be treated as full human beings with conscious and individual volition.

Feminism means different things to different women- because we are all different and coming at it from different life experiences, and with different temperaments.

There are loads of them who agree with the Gender Critical position - but that is all. They are not feminists because they can’t be

Why do they have to be? And so what if they aren't?