Dickpandering in feminism

[SwearyWhitehouse]

Is anyone else a bit nonplussed at this? Feminism is surely by women and for women. In order for it to have any hope of succeeding it must centre women and be women led. We keep saying that men cannot come into women’s spaces, even if they identify as women, yet we seem to be championing men who do the bare minimum or who speak over the top of talented, diligent, hardworking women and take all the credit. Who silence women using block lists or by muscling them out of groups for disagreeing with them or pointing out that theyre speaking for women rather than elevating our voices.

Why is Glinner, for example, being lauded for writing a piece on Challenor when women shared all that information months ago? He’s busy kicking women out of working groups whilst taking credit for their work. If he called himself a woman whilst doing this we’d have no truck with it.

Just because these men don’t claim womanhood doesn’t mean they’re not infiltrating women’s spaces. We need to pay attention.

Why do they have to be? And so what if they aren't?

They shouldn’t be part of feminist groups.

Feminism means different things to different women- because we are all different and coming at it from different life experiences, and with different temperaments.

JFC. Feminism has a very clear definition.

And men aren't part of it.

I don't really understand why someone who's not a feministandhas no interest in feminism posts here tbh

Ooh rattled your cage. I'm female. I am interested in women's role in the world. You would not be trying to tell a woman to shut up would you? Heaven forfend.

The more I see I'm a feminist the more I think it's a pretty useless and meaningless word. All you (general you) rad fems on here saying lib fems aren't real and vice versa on other social media platforms. And not to mention the disagreements on several current threads about who is a real feminist and who isn't.

I don't really understand why someone who's not a feminist and has no interest in feminism posts here tbh

It depends on how you interpret feminism? Feminism is a very broad church, like all political movements.I do find the reflexive man-hating aspect of some feminism a big turn off myself.

I've always liked men, myself; get on with men, generally; had a loving father who supported my individual development, and have not ended up in relationships with abusive men. Of course, like all women, I have been the subject of prejudice on account of my sex, and abusive verbal harassment.

My feminism is rooted in the facts of my womanhood; in the facts of my difference from men; how could it be otherwise? I have no desire to be a man...but I do believe in the right of women to have the opportunities to fully express their own individual personalities, talents and skills.

For me feminism has come to a point - especially as a result of radical trans ideology - where it needs to re-calibrate and focus on what it is that makes us women. Of course, this will elicit different responses from different people - because apart from our biology we are all different.

Some of us celebrate our bodies, our fertility, our heterosexuality, our more traditional roles; some are positively turned off by all of that.....are lesbians, career women, or identify as androgynous, and want to reject all that the female body represents or implies.

The only thing that unites us as women, is our body; our biology - and the implicit implications of that in a wider society -whatever we may make of that.

JFC. Feminism has a very clear definition

What's your definition?

And men aren't part of it

What is the point of a political movement that excludes half of the population? How is it ever going to be effective?

rad fems on here saying lib fems aren't real

I'd actually call myself a radical - and always have done.....in many areas of my life - and not a liberal....but then my version of radicalism is quite different to the radicalism of some others.

If feminism is advocating some kind of equality between sexes then of course men Are part of it cos they are one of the sexes.

Of course, not being female their perspectives may be off. Therefore they need to recognise the need to defer to expert knowledge.

Patriarchy puts one sex above the other. My feminism does not.

I think you’ve got to take it in context

The reason we need feminism is the historical and ongoing oppression of women by men

Therefore men are not well placed to understand what women face because they will never pick up on it for themselves. They have to have everything explained to them. In addition they’re likely to feel that they should be in charge. And some women are likely to agree with them

It’s like the beegees expecting to lead black lives matter

I guess I don’t even agree that an man can never pick up for themselves the nature of patriarchy. Becuase it was a man who taught me about the patriarchy, from the abuse his mother and sisters experienced, to the treatment of female scientists such as franklin. He saw it very clearly. Rare yes, impossible, no

ANYWAY

Jo Bartosch made a contribution to DJ Lippy's elephant in the room series. Wise words and we could all do with reflecting on them. Extract:

Feminism has a dirty secret; we aren’t allowed to voice it for fear of seeming unsisterly, but the truth is women are trained to hate other women. The ways in which this intra-sex civil war rages are heart-breaking and destructive, leaving many within the feminist movement feeling totally alone and under siege from all sides.

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/the-elephant-in-the-room-part-two

We might like to ask ourselves this question: why are we slagging each other off just because a penis did something predictably and annoyingly penis-like, or indeed, arguing about whether or not that penis did actually do this incredibly predictable penis-like thing?

Talking about men as a whole class in the third person in this way is not helpful.

Well my point was about men as a class so talking about them in any other way would have been even less helpful justhadathought. And using first or second person POV would be incredibly confusing all round.

For me feminism means life viewed through a female perspective; valuing the feminine; along with the call to be treated as full human beings with conscious and individual volition.

Right you are. Well I’m a radical feminist in it for the liberation of women from oppression.

Wise questions Lang and I’m interested to discuss them but are you calling men penises for the undoubtedly comedic value or is it a feminist thing I should be adopting?

I’m thinking of women’s groups who admitted males because they identified as female

Again and again we see their original aims being diluted or diverted. Like the WEP

I just think that men who do ‘get it’ are so vanishingly rare that it’s safer to proceed as if they don’t exist. Because once you let males in it’s nigh on impossible to get rid of them

Wise questions Lang and I’m interested to discuss them but are you calling men penises for the undoubtedly comedic value or is it a feminist thing I should be adopting?

A feeble attempt to lighten the tone!

I would have some/more respect for the men speaking up if they did their own thinking instead of parroting the work and words of women.

Really? Most women say pretty much the same things about this stuff as well, not something new they have come up with themselves. It's not "original" because another woman said it.

If original thought was a requirement 99% of people should keep their mouths shut.

I remember my mum’s anger when men were allowed into paid roles at the WI

She was right too. The subs were immediately raised to a level which some women could not pay

Feminism has a very clear definition.And men aren't part of it.

I' think you'll find there is no TM on feminism, and women themselves have all kinds of different viewpoints about what it is and who can be a feminist.

You can say what you think it means, but it's not up to you, or your faction, to decide.

One of the biggest reasons women get turned off of the whole thing is that it reminds them of being in school, with the little factions and infighting and telling tales, and deciding whose voices count. If you give a shit about it you should try and break free of that crap. Convince other women, don't tell them what to think. Or you are just another case all animals are equal but some are more equal than the others.

Erm. Doesn't glinner say that his "war on women" pieces are written by a woman who doesn't want to be identified?

Did he write something else? That's caused such an issue? The infighting reaching troubling levels. What do you all hope to achieve by it?

And, most importantly, what does gf stand for as an insult? Even urban dictionary is no help.

Goady fucker I expect Kat

Old school MN insult

It's a bit like a meat eater who occasionally enjoys a tofu burger going on a vegan forum and constantly saying 'I'm not vegan but I like tofu' when the politics of veganism are discussed. Why not just join in tofu threads and ignore the rest?

It really isn't. You are assuming that it is not allowed to be concerned about issues that affect women unless one calls oneself a feminist. As I said I think "feminist" is almost meaningless.

There is also the viewpoint that feminism does not necessarily work to the good of women. Do you think women should not be allowed to express that view? The infantilising nature of certain feminist thought seems to me to be part of considering the politics of feminism.

There's a long thread at the moment that feminism has failed. Should that discussion not be allowed?

Your point about veganism doesn't hold water either. I'm a vegetarian because I care about animal rights and animal welfare. One could argue that veganism is therefore the way to go. However if everyone became vegan farm animals would cease to be kept. Alternatively one could argue that it is better that animals are kept but only in exclusively free range, high welfare conditions with short trips to local abbatoirs. The latter is my pragmatic view, not that everyone should be vegan.

Sorry, meant to say - giving consideration to the infantilising nature of certain feminist thought seems to me to be part of considering the politics of feminism.