Dickpandering in feminism

[SwearyWhitehouse]

Is anyone else a bit nonplussed at this? Feminism is surely by women and for women. In order for it to have any hope of succeeding it must centre women and be women led. We keep saying that men cannot come into women’s spaces, even if they identify as women, yet we seem to be championing men who do the bare minimum or who speak over the top of talented, diligent, hardworking women and take all the credit. Who silence women using block lists or by muscling them out of groups for disagreeing with them or pointing out that theyre speaking for women rather than elevating our voices.

Why is Glinner, for example, being lauded for writing a piece on Challenor when women shared all that information months ago? He’s busy kicking women out of working groups whilst taking credit for their work. If he called himself a woman whilst doing this we’d have no truck with it.

Just because these men don’t claim womanhood doesn’t mean they’re not infiltrating women’s spaces. We need to pay attention.

I get put off by the sort of feminism that has a utopian vision of a world without men.

I'm in this for the rights of women, children and human beings in general. Jazz Jennings and Susie Green's son break my heart.

Juells Everything she said in both previous posts.

Honestly, this past week every other thread I've opened on this forum appears to have been largely driven by those slagging off the posters here for not doing right; one actually calling into question "what have feminists ever done for women?"? Seriously? Yes it's been quite the mindfuck round here. I mean, seriously, wtf is going on?

Yep supporting Juells. Am also upset by this kind of argument. No one is going to make me chant 'All men are bastards' anymore than TWAW.

Sorry this is a bit of an essay.

The 'gender critical' movement has grown very big, very quickly and includes all sorts of people and groups as well as feminists:

transsexuals
concerned parents
free speech advocates
right wingers
child welfare and protection advocates
sports fans (male and female)
LGB people
people who believe material reality exists
decent men
intersex advocates
ethical medical practitioners
religious people
philosophers
lawyers (actual ones)

... probably more and obviously lots of people fit into two or more groups and lots are also feminists.

The trans/queer/gender agenda is such a huge threat, not only to women but also to children and ultimately men too, that I think feminists do need to work with other groups and people who may not agree with us on a vast swathe of issues. Not all feminists need to do this and the separatists are absolutely vital for keeping the whole thing grounded and focused on women but 'gender critical' is so huge now I believe it would continue in some form even without further feminist input. So we now need to work with other groups to ensure we get the feminist outcomes we've been campaigning for since before everybody else joined in.

We can only do this if we acknowledge differences and set boundaries. Otherwise we waste a whole load of angst, time and energy trying to get everyone to agree on everything when they are never going to. There's a great blueprint for this way of working - Hands Across The Aisle:

For the first time, women from across the political spectrum have come together to challenge the notion that gender is the same as sex. We are radical feminists, lesbians, Christians and conservatives that are tabling our ideological differences to stand in solidarity against gender identity legislation, which we have come to recognize as the erasure of our own hard-won civil rights. As the Hands Across the Aisle Coalition, we are committed to working together, rising above our differences, and leveraging our collective resources to oppose gender identity ideology.

handsacrosstheaislewomen.com/home/

Many of the women involved were also involved with Venice, Julia and Posie's highly successful visit to the US earlier this year.

HATA 'table their differences' but you can't do that until you've honestly acknowledged those differences.

Just two years ago there was only a tiny tiny group of (almost exclusively) feminist women fighting back against the genderists, and they'd been fighting for a long time already. Nobody was listening. Nobody outside of feminism gave a shit. Any outside support seemed like a fucking miracle so we (some of us at least) grabbed it and didn't ask too many questions. There was a feeling that we all had to cling together because we were so few and I think that mindset has carried forward to the point where it's no longer useful.

I find the infighting extremely distressing but it's actually a positive sign - the gender critical movement is now large enough to have schisms. We just need to manage them well so that everybody's voice is heard and nobody has to sell out their principles and we can still work together towards common goals.

HOWEVER

Gender critical =/= feminist

FWR = Feminism & women's rights

It's understandable that loads of gender critical non-feminists have flocked to FWR because, despite all its ludicrous restrictions, this is still just about the best place on the internet to discuss this clusterfuck.

There were endless discussions back in the day about whether FWR was a space for feminists or a space to discuss feminism (i.e. a space where people can come and criticise feminism). That was bad enough. Now we have non-feminists who don't even want to discuss feminism, they're just here because they are gender critical - i.e. they share a single issue with feminists.

I'm not saying fuck off (see above) but we need to acknowledge that not everybody here is posting from a feminist perspective or is interested in feminism, and we need to acknowledge that there is a major impact on feminist space if a load of people turn up and post non-feminist (sometimes anti-feminist) stuff.

We made this topic because we wanted a feminist forum. We still want a feminist forum. Maybe some threads would be better placed in the politics topic if they don't particularly relate to feminism. Wider audience.

Objecting to dickpandering is solid feminism. We're all socialised to dickpander and it takes conscious effort to stop doing it. Having it pointed out is a helpful first step.

Dickpandering is absolutely rife in the gender critical movement because everyone knows men are listened to far more than women, so it is tricky, but everyone who cares about women should be amplifying women's voices precisely because women are underheard.

BUT ALSO

Please can we stop doing this shit in public? Especially when it concerns private groups that most posters here are not members of.

LOL at 'Pussypandering'

Dickpandering is when women suck up to men because men have power.

The kneejerk urge to find the direct equivalence (when it doesn't exist) shows at best a lack of understanding of feminism and why it's needed in the first place.

I LOVE YOU SO MUCH I'M TYPING IN CAPITALS, PENCILS.

That's me proclaiming my love for Pencils from the rooftops.

Objecting to dickpandering is solid feminism.

This and the rest of it 1000000000000000 times over

Quite fond of you too LangCleg.

[beer]

Well, I think that when feminists tell the rest of women that they're not welcome in a space, the rest of women will go elsewhere and leave the purists in their own little space to fight with themselves.

Years ago I went (once!) to a feminist meeting in Dublin, and was very impressed by an older impassioned woman who was ranting that the group didn't give a shit about ordinary women with husbands and children, didn't want their input as they were seen as 'less'. I didn't have children at the time, so I didn't really know what she was angry about, but I couldn't see how anything could be achieved by a group who wanted to sit around jawing, ignoring the reality of people's lives.

If we're not welcome here, and misunderstood the title of this section of MN, would it be useful to petition MN for a specifically GC board? Then the true feminists could talk among themselves about such interesting topics as dickpandering and AMALT while the rest of us mouth our silly little not-feminist thoughts to each other.

I can see that if you (general you) have been part of a small group fighting something for a long time, it's annoying when there's an influx of others who see things differently. But to bring the da ngers of the gender ideology to general notice, the numbers fighting it must increase.

I'm happy to listen to anyone who makes a good arguement.

utterly bonkers I know.

pussypandering 😂

I'm happy to listen to anyone who makes a good arguement.

You hussy

PencilsInSpace
Really, really, really - is this a public platform or a private club? I've spent my entire life being the odd one out, the man hater etc etc. For the first time in years I thought I'd found a home. You're telling me I'm not welcome because I don't subscribe to any dogma but you need the numbers so you'll tolerate me. Here's the thing feminist theory can be challenged and critiqued, in fact it's an essential part of progress.
I'm sorry but I now feel that anything I say will be despised by the true feminist hierarchy, I really used to hate those conscious raising groups.
Calling out 'dickpandering' is straight from the woke playbook of calling out 'microagressions'.
Maybe I should just walk away from it all, I just hoped when I die women would be making progress not facing a new dark age.

Pencils so in practical terms - a piece like GL’s Challenor one might go on a dedicated GC board, thereby keeping FWR free of:
(a) not-strictly-feminist content;
(b) males; and
(c) dick pandering?

Pencils I've thought about what you've said re loads of gender critical non-feminists have flocked to FWR because, despite all its ludicrous restrictions, this is still just about the best place on the internet to discuss this clusterfuck.

This was me. But because I hung around, and read, I've learnt more about what actually being female means. I'm now here for more than the GC debate, but admittedly it's where I'm still most comfortable, but I'm staying because I now recognise I share more than a single issue with feminists

If we separate the stands we make a weaker rope.

(I didn’t mean that in a flouncy way - genuine question)

I see I’m not the only one who feels a bit like I’ve been a fan of an amazing band for years, been to lots of shows, bought all the albums and joined the fan forum only to be talked down to by the members who were there when the band was playing in their mums’ garages and now have backstage passes.

Could your post be any more patronizing, Pencils? Reading that I guess we should be grateful we’re being allowed to support this cause at all let alone post on FWR. But here’s the thing, FWR isn’t your secret little club, FWR belongs, as far as I’m aware, to mumsnet, ie it’s a public forum open to everyone not just the chosen few who were there at the inception of whatever secret handshake societies you have outside of here. And you don’t get to dictate either the discourse or the people who post here. Oh and you don’t get to pat me on the head and tell me I’m a good little ally but not a feminist either. Fuck that noise.

I'm not saying anyone should feel unwelcome here. I'm pointing out how the forum has changed and how this can be a source of conflict.

For example a while back there was a lot of discussion about a proposed web chat with Jordan Peterson. Some posters thought feminists should be all over it purely because Peterson is a believer in free speech who objects to being made to use inaccurate pronouns.

For example there is a poster on FWR who posts links to petitions on CitizenGo because she works for the platform. She, and the platform, are 'gender gritical' in the broadest sense but are coming at it from a conservative christian angle so the issue then gets tangled up with some decidedly unfeminist views on abortion, LGB rights etc.

For example there were the threads raving about Zuby, the male rapper who, to make a point, briefly identified as a woman in order to break the British Women's deadlist record. Because he cares about fairness in sport. Meanwhile he thinks women should not have bodily autonomy.

For example there are frequent threads by 'gender critical' trans people, some more polite and reasonable than others, yet (MY excepted) they all eventually reveal themselves to be about transsexual rights rather than women's rights. Fair enough but not really a problem for feminism.

All the varied GC voices are important, as I thought I had made clear in my previous post.

I'm just a bit confused as to why they all need shoehorning into feminism and whether that's the most effective strategy. After all there are a fuckton of people who avoid anything labelled 'feminist' like the plague.

seems to me that people are misinterpreting Pencils post

i read it as:

obviously anyone can come here, it's not a private club.

anyone can post what they like. it's not a private club.

however, it was set up because people asked for a feminist forum on mumsnet. lots of the people who post here regularly are feminists. so if what you post is not feminism, people are going to notice that and talk about it.

i understand that it used to get pretty wild here back in the day, and dickpandering-gate is a walk in the park compared to the fall outs of old.

ooh, x post with pencils who spoke for herself far more eloquently than I did!

I shall always be immensely grateful to Glinner for speaking out in support of women's right to single-sex spaces. No other male celebrity has done so, and he has received quite extraordinary amounts of abuse for it. He's carried on, nonetheless. God knows we've moaned often enough about the fact that more men aren't supporting us.

Just as white people should speak out about racism, then men should speak up when women's rights are under attack. No, of course we shouldn't give men's voices priority in this struggle, but I don't think anybody is. If you look at this forum, then we frequently heap praise on articles by Julie Bindel, Jane Clare Jones, Helen Saxby and others. When you look at the successful meetings run by A Woman's Place, Venice Allan and Posie Parker, they've all had all-women lineups.

Glinner is just one voice amongst many, but I reserve the right to value his voice just as much as I value the voices of the many brilliant, brave women speaking out.

So you're making the point again that this board isn't suitable for those of us who aren't part of the original group who started this board. But you don't own it, and the current fight for women's rights is the most important cause women have right now, everything else falls if we can't define what a woman is without being accused of hateful speech. This board has been flooded with new members precisely for that reason. So what's the solution? Drive us away and get back to your cosy bubble where you can argue about theories?

Objecting to dickpandering is solid feminism.

It really is.

Good goddess. Everyone stop taking things so bloody personally. It's a feminist forum. Women are going to say feminist things - and that includes feminist things about dick pandering or critique of aspects of the soi disant gender critical movement that aren't feminist.

Taking that as an injury to personal identity/worthiness/morality is just a leaf from the opposition's playbook.

Arguing between ourselves about the correct amount of homage a penis is owed - however worthy the bloody penis - is the least feminist thing I can imagine.