Dickpandering in feminism

[SwearyWhitehouse]

Is anyone else a bit nonplussed at this? Feminism is surely by women and for women. In order for it to have any hope of succeeding it must centre women and be women led. We keep saying that men cannot come into women’s spaces, even if they identify as women, yet we seem to be championing men who do the bare minimum or who speak over the top of talented, diligent, hardworking women and take all the credit. Who silence women using block lists or by muscling them out of groups for disagreeing with them or pointing out that theyre speaking for women rather than elevating our voices.

Why is Glinner, for example, being lauded for writing a piece on Challenor when women shared all that information months ago? He’s busy kicking women out of working groups whilst taking credit for their work. If he called himself a woman whilst doing this we’d have no truck with it.

Just because these men don’t claim womanhood doesn’t mean they’re not infiltrating women’s spaces. We need to pay attention.

What an intelligent response. I'm so impressed.

You really have a problem listening to women "whatevs" you might say.

No such thing as feminism now? Interesting.

I'm not a feminist, just your average manhater giving feminism a bad rep, so I can't really comment.

Genuinely interesting to read this thread, alongside Telly Addicts board on the third series of The Handmaid's Tale (TV, UK pace). I'm only up to episode 4, currently.

There's a long thread at the moment that feminism has failed. Should that discussion not be allowed?

That thread is fascinating and I'm glad the OP started it. Why would you want to police and silence something like that on FWR?

I don't understand reporting people for wrongthink, it's not something I would think of doing myself

What is "wrongthink"?

Erm. Doesn't glinner say that his "war on women" pieces are written by a woman who doesn't want to be identified?

The Challenor one was written by Glinner, as a guest writer for Feminist Current. The other articles he linked here were by LS.

I thanked Glinner because in the Challenor piece he linked directly to the MN thread here and name checked MN.
If that piece reaches a wider audience because his name is on it, and if that leads to click throughs to FWR, adding to the growing number of unique users who access MN through FWR, and those people stay and read around and start their own conversations then Glinner is (amongst other things) a top Sherpa helping in the fight that is the war on women.

Bernard thanks for the chill comments, I've agreed with everything you've said.

As for 'poppet', and other personal attacks

Unless I missed something this thread started off with a grenade but no actual details were forthcoming. If you have a genuine complaint then spell it out and let people come to their own conclusions.

I can't help but feel the GRA reform community, cause and campaign would be so much more effective and productive if people could get their egos in check. Allowing personal stuff to muddy the water just isn't helpful. I really wish we could play smarter in that respect.

You're not going to get on with everyone. This cause attracts a massively mixed bag of different people from different backgrounds with different political leanings, and self-ID is perhaps the only thing they might have in common.

Re: Glinner. Yep, I'm good with him. I'm good with all of the men (that I know of) who are doing their bit. It doesn't work without the buy-in of men and there's no point pretending otherwise. The men who are using their platform to push this cause into the spotlight get a big thumbs up from me, especially when it often comes at personal cost. It's nothing short of shooting yourself in the foot to reject and alienate them.

I’m bewildered by these threads, possibly as I’m not on Twitter and have no idea what’s gone on.

If Graham’s been an arse, people should should hand it to him, send a DM on here even. Otherwise it feels like women who weren’t there are paying for a falling out they weren’t party to.

If Dr Em (or Kate?) could use support, we could crowd fund - I would contribute. I also support OP and GCF generally. Stellar work, and I appreciate all people are doing.

I also support Graham and anyone who shines any light on this child safeguarding disaster.

Haven't a clue what was going on, but what's with all this attacking each other?

Fuck it. Graham Linehan posts under his own name and it has personally done him more harm than good.

I, for one, am grateful to all the people who have stuck their head up over the parapet under their own names. I don't but even if I did nobody would recognise it.
I saw some reference to kicking Dr. Em out of a group and another person said he then apologised and left the group so she could be included again.

@bettybeans

I could care less what Glinner has done or not done here. Storm in a Twitter teacup.

Dickpandering is a horrible term though. What’s the equivalent?

Pussypandering

Well I’m a radical feminist in it for the liberation of women from oppression

As human beings we all experience oppression in one form or another. It is part of the human condition. Good luck in trying to abolish oppression and suffering altogether. That is precisely what all political movements tend to be about, though. It's an ideal.

The oppressions that women, specifically, suffer - occur as a direct result of our biology/our body, and how the facts of our sexed being are 'translated' in society.

What is your solution?

Some people look to a technological solution, where babies could be gestated outside of the human body; or the development of womb transplants which would enable men to carry babies ( still in the realm of science fantasy/fiction)......and so on.....

The Radical Trans movement postulates that the body/biology is a social construct, and that sex resides entirely in one's mind - and so it matters not that male bodied people share intimate spaces with female bodied people - as they 'are all women'. They say that some women are just as violent as some men - so what's the fuss about men being in women's prisons; what's the difference?......

I get what you are saying, and where you are coming from....we are all human beings as well as being men and women; but I simply can no longer see the solution to the fact that as human beings we are born in one or other sexed body. And sexed differences are real and do matter.

Yes, we have risen above nature ( perhaps too far away from nature now - out of touch with earth and its eco-systems), and we recognise individuality and individual significance - individuality that goes above and beyond the sexed body. The women's movement has fought to have women treated, firstly, as full human beings...even though there is still a long way to go on this - certainly in many other parts of the world.

Does over-coming oppression mean that women should not have children and should seek to suppress their biology? Or that all women should be forced into full time paid employment whether they like it or not?

Should we all actively choose lesbianism, as a political act, and shun the society of men. Develop an entirely separate, parallel society - with women provided/manufactured services, products and environments in all areas? ( interestingly read the other day that Saudi Arabia is in the process of developing entire workplaces/offices/factories that are for women only - as a response to the demand for women in the workplace).

How do we go about ridding ourselves of the oppressions and limitations that arise as a result of our sexed body and its societal evaluation?

It's tricky!

I think some people need to get of Twitter and get some fresh air.
Plenty of women and men have stood up to be counted and been lauded for it.
Surely the point of all this is child safeguarding, female sports, safety of women prisoners, crime stats, legal definition of a woman...
It doesn't matter who draws media attention to all this! It's not, I don't think, about celebrity, although the anti self id movement has clearly created some minor celebrities...whose which is always a danger frankly. Best to focus on the actual issues.

What is "wrongthink"?

An Orwellian term, based on the premise that only certain thoughts are acceptable and of the state being able to intrude on and polices people's thoughts as well as their actions.

We must have pure thoughts at all times.

Women are very often guilty of wrongthink, which is seen and punished as a hate crime.

So we must remember that transwomen are women, but above all, and most importantly , not. all. men.

Why is Glinner, for example, being lauded for writing a piece on Challenor..

I think he has a much bigger readership than you or I do. So just like Ricky Gervaise, he can get the message across to more people? I am glad about that. Is that lauding him?

However if everyone became vegan farm animals would cease to be kept.

That's the general idea, yeah.

However if everyone became vegan farm animals would cease to be kept

That's the general idea, yeah

Depends on whether you are content these animals cease to exist or are kept in standards of high welfare

It's not dickpandering to recognise when someone puts themselves on the line, and suffers for it. I hugely admire Posie, she got shit for going to the US and meeting with 'the wrong type of person'. This is a fight that everyone should be involved in, women can't just accuse other women of 'dickpandering' for reacting to a good article that brings the issues to public notice. Should we go to the naughty step if we've been guilty of giving someone an acknowledgement that an article was useful?

I follow mostly women on twitter - I don't even follow Glinner there. The only GC man I follow is James Dreyfus, who's getting the shit kicked out of him and being dropped from a series for daring to talk about the subject of gender. I'll follow who I want, and I'll thank who I want. Those I applaud are mostly women, but anyone who tells me I can't applaud a man can take a hike.

Why is Glinner, for example, being lauded for writing a piece on Challenor

It was a very well written piece.

Why shouldn't he be? I'm an absolute fan of Posie, and see no difference in applauding her and applauding him. There are a lot of women like me who don't have the interest or the intellectual wherewithal to understand feminist theory, but we know when we're being fucked over, and welcome help from any quarter.

It isn't a fight for only the right sort of woman, we all need to be involved.

This is a bit like a recent thread about how we're all doing feminism wrong because we're ignoring the fact that marriage is prostitution. I don't care about the bees are buzzing in anyone's bonnet, most women aren't interested in extremist views and find them off-putting. You drive away potential allies and ordinary women like me once you start talking about dickpandering. It's fucking insulting.

...and anudder thing. Nobody owns the FWR board. It's For Women's Rights as far as I know, it isn't for Feminists Who Know What Feminism Is. Nobody has the right to tell me that I have to subscribe to a particular type of feminism - or consider myself feminist at all - in order to post here.

Dickpandering is a horrible term though. What’s the equivalent?
Pussypandering
I agree, I dislike the use of insullting terms as a way of making a point. I can't decide if it sounds misogynistic or patronising but it sounds wrong. I think trying to be brief, and often a bit witty, on the internet, has introduced a lot of dodgy sound-bites into narratives on forums. 'Kink-shamer', 'pearl-clutcher' - and a lot of them are used by women against other women.

I am pleased that Glinner, and anyone else who is brave enough and has any clout, is happy to stand up for issues that don't affect them personally. I agree that men can often try to take over the narrative from women but I haven't seen that myself so far with Glinner.

I have no problem with decent men and even better if they want to help us fight attacks on our rights. Glinner seems like a good man to me and I'm grateful to him for using his platform to get these issues known, the same way I'm glad that other men and women have spoken up about it.

I guess if you're a lesbian separatist feminist then I can see your point, but most of us are not lesbians nor separatists. I think with that line of thinking you're in misandrist territory.

I've noticed there has been a lot of in fighting in this new movement which disappoints me. I appreciate all voices speaking up and like the way everyone comes from different backgrounds, I've actually really enjoyed watching some more right wing videos on youtube and reading the Spectator and the Scottish newspapers and hearing a wide range of voices from both sexes across the political spectrum having previously only got my news from the BBC and the guardian and hearing mostly left wing views. It's been refreshing, interesting and enriching.

Infighting is a distraction and a gift to the TRAs and I think we need to be able to accept our differences and work together to ensure our rights do not get erased.

I really like all of the people involved: Glinner, Dr Em, Sweary. They are all amazing in their own way.

However, if this argument is over something in a private group (that most people here aren’t invited to), then it should stay there.

Just because Graham is famous dosent mean we can slag him off publicly.