Dickpandering in feminism

[SwearyWhitehouse]

Is anyone else a bit nonplussed at this? Feminism is surely by women and for women. In order for it to have any hope of succeeding it must centre women and be women led. We keep saying that men cannot come into women’s spaces, even if they identify as women, yet we seem to be championing men who do the bare minimum or who speak over the top of talented, diligent, hardworking women and take all the credit. Who silence women using block lists or by muscling them out of groups for disagreeing with them or pointing out that theyre speaking for women rather than elevating our voices.

Why is Glinner, for example, being lauded for writing a piece on Challenor when women shared all that information months ago? He’s busy kicking women out of working groups whilst taking credit for their work. If he called himself a woman whilst doing this we’d have no truck with it.

Just because these men don’t claim womanhood doesn’t mean they’re not infiltrating women’s spaces. We need to pay attention.

You know what this movement needs more of? People who could start a fight in an empty room. We just don’t have enough of them

Amalfimamma
It was me who told Sweary that - not Jessica. And I have apologised and am most embarrassed for not recognising her.

I don't see why women should be able to ringfence this issue as a 'women only' problem. Men are parents too. Are they not allowed get involved in fighting for the safety of their children? Are they not allowed to have an opinion on gender-neutral toilets?

You know what this movement needs more of? People who could start a fight in an empty room. We just don’t have enough of them

Right?

Look of you are dumb enough to still be on twitter and have a spat there, why bring it here? I’m not your Mum. Sort it yourselves.

IS Now a good time to say how lovely frozen hot water bottles are?

The role and use of men in the movement for women's liberation is an important feminist issue

But a lot of women who are concerned about the threat posed by the trans agenda don't consider that they're part of the women's liberation movement. Are they going to turned on as well?

Just because feminists are involved doesn't mean they fucking own the fight. You'll drive supporters away with this territorial bullshit.

I haven't seen the twitter stuff and I don't need to. It's an issue on FWR and it merits discussion and if we can't discuss it without getting massively defensive, I think we need to ask ourselves why that is.

And Sweary is a pussycat compared to Dittany. And this board is poorer for the latter's absence.

Are they not allowed to have an opinion on gender-neutral toilets?

Having & stating opinions - absolutely fine. But where James Kirkup, for instance, gets it right is that he’s always very careful to acknowledge the women who have been working on this for ages & also how much more shit they get for it. I have a lot more respect for Dr EM than I do for Glinner.

And more respect for Sweary too, by the way.

Jessica you kept posting other threads for our attention, as though everyone else is not already well informed and fighting fucking hard for women and girls. It’s also derailing the thread which, since you have been on MN for so very long, you know is considered to be rather impolite.

Spartacus - exactly. Every women’s campaign I’ve ever been involved with there has been issues thrown up by the involvement of men. Those are always dealt with without shutting down women who are experiencing problems and alerting the rest of us. It’s odd that on MN lately only gratitude toward GC men is allowed. (Criticism of GC women abounds from many of the same people though.)

There is huge amounts of fawning over men who 'get it' - not just on here but across social media. And while I accept the argument that their voices are likely to be heard above ours, we all have a responsibility to keep pushing women's voices to ensure that we are not doing all the labour while they get the kudos.

Yes. These specific arguments aside, this is something we all need to bear in mind and try to fulfil that responsibility.

Look. It's a spectrum. There will always be women who want no male input into feminism campaigning at all and there will always be women who dick pander to the men who get involved in feminist campaigning. Most of us are somewhere in between. I tend more to the no penis thanks side personally, but am prepared to bite the bullet and accept that right here, right now, we need men too.

As far as this particular circumstance goes, here's my interest: it seems to me that Kate Scottow has found herself disadvantaged twice now in initiatives involving men. I don't know all the details. I don't want to know all the details. I'm not interested in working out what blame goes where. Kate is under extreme pressure and in an awful position regardless of these fallings out and so the only thing I'm interested in is what I can do to help and/or support her. I have no intention of falling out with any women over it.

Sevigny

I posted two because people are complaining women don’t get the same attention. I was on those posts, those complaining were not. Two posts and I ‘keep posting’. Jfc.

I’m done. This is silly time wasting.

The role and use of men in the movement for women's liberation is an important feminist issue, and one that is playing out in real time right now. The fact that raising it on here results in a slurry of troll/GF accusations on this thread is bizarre.

Also this.

There will always be women who want no male input into feminism campaigning at all and there will always be women who dick pander to the men who get involved in feminist campaigning.

You’re right. On the GC issue though, we should remember it isn’t exclusively feminist campaigning.

Did you all co-ordinate these responses in your secret group?

Sadly I don't care so much if men are listening or not. This thread is enacting its own nightmare: like all those movies where women are either speaking about men, or not speaking at all. Much more interested in what women are doing out in big wide world other than worrying about men...Maybe we could start a thread: amazing shit women have been up to that nobody previously knew because it wasn't publicised before...

Can you just imagine Harrop and his gang sitting around their IPads grinning about the silliness of all this? This is exactly what they want. Heck, they're probably on here, stirring things up even more. We need to be the better side.

I'm all for talking about our inclination to listed to and laud men over women

i'd like it if we could do it without attacking each other though

oh and

IS Now a good time to say how lovely frozen hot water bottles are?

I know it's a derail, but SPILL MIDGE

On another thread we're celebrating the increase in use of Mumsnet. If you want it to fall just continue like this. I'm sick and tired women and men telling me what I should and shouldn't think.

I don't know how we have this conversation without other women feeling attacked though?

Sweary could have started a thread which said: "It's become increasingly obvious to me that a lot of women on FWR and more widely laud and celebrate men's initiatives far more than they do those of women, even when those men have basically lifted all the content for their blog/article from women's work. Why do women do that?

It would have got the same response. No woman who calls themself a feminist wants to acknowledge they gush over men more than they do women. I should know because I have to check myself from doing it. I am sometimes so grateful that a bloke gets it that my inclination is to fawn. So I have to stop and think and consider how I would treat him if he were a woman.

I have much lower expectations of men and I shouldn't. And neither should any of us. We should be able to discuss this.