Do you ever worry we’re wrong?

[liltclassic]

About the trans debate? I don’t believe trans-women are women, and I think the concept of being able to self ID would be detrimental to women’s rights. But with the opposition to us, the many arguments with people about it, the accusations of being transphobic, sometimes I really worry that I’m wrong and that I will be on the wrong side of history. Does this ever worry anyone? I keep doubting myself.

No

Never

"the wrong side of history" makes it sound to me that things always get better overall. It may be true that people think differently about TWAW on a hundred years, but that doesn't make me think they will be right.

I think it's ALWAYS good to question whether we are right or wrong. But don't listen to those who shout down measured, respectful debate - that is always wrong!

Just remind yourself of some of the self appointed major players on the boys side and wonder about their motives and character.

A lot of people come to be gender critical through careful consideration of the facts so we've already done all the worrying, on route to making a reasoned conclusion.

You cannot change sex. It's a fact. Can't be wrong.

Nope, critical thinking n that.

"History is written by the victors"
Doesn't mean they were right.

I've never been more sure of anything in my life but I do come at the issue from a medical science point of view. I was taught that a Y chromosome confers maleness and therefore logically, changing your body using surgery and/or hormones doesn't change the underlying genetics.

Every day I'm more convinced I'm right.

No. I have already done the thinking.

There is no way ON EARTH it can be right to castrate or sterilise and mutilate children on the basis that they might possibly (despite the stats saying otherwise) commit suicide if they don't.

I really do think this is a weird men's movement which is aimed at appropriating womanhood. If they "win" the word woman will lose its meaning.

I simply can't remember any social change going on with such little discussion. Think about gay marriage, those who disagreed were always given a platform to speak. They were respectfully argued with, not just told to shut up.

We had this thread last month.

Nope.

No, not anymore. Women are already being put at risk in prison from a rapist who self id’d himself as a woman. It’d be naive to think that if self id comes in it won’t open the floodgates for more of these predatory men to access women’s changing rooms, shelters etc. As has been pointed out many times, some men literally build their whole career solely with the motivation of accessing vulnerable women/kids to abuse, so having to self id will be much easier for them.

Sometimes I wonder what's gotten into everyone, then I remember that I used to think like them once upon a time and it wasn't until I asked one question that it all started unravelling - both in my mind as an incoherent and illogical load of tosh and in my life as I was viciously abused for even ASKING something (when trying to back up my argument FOR twaw, ironically enough).

No. Humans cannot change sex. I feel for people with true gender dysphoria, but they need help in coming to terms with the body they have, not pandering to, and asking that everyone else plays along with it.

But with the opposition to us
It's easy to think the Twitterverse & the people that comment on The Guardian are somehow representative of the general public, but I don't think they are. I have yet to speak to anyone really clued up on the issues (including my MP). When presented with the obvious (to us in any case) problems and consequences of self-Id, everyone I've ever spoken to agrees there are serious risks and all rights need to be carefully balanced. Never met anyone who thinks that you can really change your biology either. So no.

I do feel as if we're being portrayed as bad people but I don't think we're wrong. We feel silenced and the TRAs are very noisy, which affects how we are perceiving things, but I think most people agree with us. I have a friend with a good mix of friends, probably mostly leftie, posting a lot of trans stuff on FB and he hardly ever gets any likes. That says a lot to me.

'We had this thread last month.

Nope.'

Happy to have it again for the people who have joined since then. It's a good thread.

Especially when it starts to impact on women's rights, and is changing the meaning of words in our language. If "women" no longer means adult human female how can we protect women's rights within law?

No

In the early days I doubted myself terribly.

Now? How could I, when on one hand there in an articulate, well-reasoned factual argument and on the other there is “Because I say so”?

I have the occasional wobble then I think Fuck Off.

Sometimes I mentally take a step back. I think through both the logic/critical thinking and practical implications and it reconfirms my position.

NO I really don't OP as it just so ludicrous and dangerous that men can BE women in any sense other than a polite mass humouring kind of way from those who wish to be kind and suspend their disbelief. Even if self id became law etc, it wouldn't make us wrong.