Do you ever worry we’re wrong?

[liltclassic]

About the trans debate? I don’t believe trans-women are women, and I think the concept of being able to self ID would be detrimental to women’s rights. But with the opposition to us, the many arguments with people about it, the accusations of being transphobic, sometimes I really worry that I’m wrong and that I will be on the wrong side of history. Does this ever worry anyone? I keep doubting myself.

Yes! I knew I recognized it. Found the album where I first read the quote now, it's by Heloise Pilkington. Proper pagany goddessy chanting stuff. Marvellous.

It's the people prepared to question prevailing narratives who often turn out to be on the right side of history.

The TRAs are pushing this schtick that it's we who are stuck in the past.I've seen quite a few riffing on the peculiar notion that all women over forty have strangely tranformed into classic 1950s housewife caricatures a la Mary Whitehouse. Because yeah, that's not a lazy stereotype at all and is totes what the generation of women who grew up with feminism, activism, contraceptive freedom and give-no-fucks punk heroines in the 70s and 80s are going to be like

It's the GC people who aren't saturated in postmodern gender fantasy who are the ones looking at the future most clearly. Probably because we weren't coddled enough to get the option of not dealing with harsh reality. It's those who can see in practical terms how much we will all lose out if we don't wake bystanders up to the truth and implications now. Ignoring uncomfortable truths rarely turns out well. It's a lesson I thought we'd learned, but clearly not.

I worry. I do - the constant doom-laden chants of ‘wrong side of history’ and ‘it’s just like homophobia was’ and ‘can’t you see how transphobic that is’ - it’s unsettling. Disturbing.

But no one can ever answer the core question ‘what is a woman’ with reference to the law. Language not feelings. Verifiable facts not identity politics.

I’m so upset about GirlGuiding.

As another poster said, once your eyes are opened there’s no going back. It’s ‘nicer’ all round to be a lib fem, but it’s a lie.

Gender is regressive.

This thread has made me

liltclassic, being a scientist in STEM, I have the same approach as when discussing any scientific topic: I will carefully listen to the rational case of the other side. As things stand, the ‚other side‘ hasn‘t even worked out its definitions. So, no, I am not worried that I am wrong. Just a bit disappointed that there is not even a rational argument to be had. I didn‘t know this was even possible outside the toddlerverse.

I do challenge myself, but then I look at the women who are on our side - life long socialists, trade unionists, lesbians and think “no - we’re right.

No.

Because I was always hugely supportive of transsexuals.

But what I no longer support is the idea that their rights and needs are in any way similar to those of women.

It's their refusal to accept this and the aggressive tactics of the male rights activists to try to force people to conflate the two that has brought us to where we are now.

As Posie said on that Sky News clip if women hadn't been pushed to the point where we are very very angry about the attempt to silence us and render the word woman mwaningless. Then there would not be this push back.

No, I don't doubt it. The way some of the TRAs and their handmaidens are reaction is reminding me of the way some men react when they flirt with me and I (very very politely) reject them. So I know I am right to reject the TWs wish to enter our private spaces.

No.

Because we only have one request: Let's talk about the issues and see what works for us all

They have numerous demands which boil down to: Give us everything we want, now!

Sorry... we used to have only one request...

Increasing demands have caused heels to be dug in and previous 'blind eyes' are no longer being turned.

There is only one wrong side here - the side that demands, no platforms, threatens and hurts.

Against that no amount of merely being impolite could possibly be 'in the wrong'

*Because I was always hugely supportive of transsexuals.

But what I no longer support is the idea that their rights and needs are in any way similar to those of women.

It's their refusal to accept this and the aggressive tactics of the male rights activists to try to force people to conflate the two that has brought us to where we are now.*

This

I have been asking myself the same question but after really careful consideration, reading and discussion am very happy that I am right in my beliefs. I will always support a fellow human being who is going through difficulty but this is completely taking the proverbial...

We must fight this, we must not be afraid to say that women need their own identity and space, I will not share that with a man regardless if he has changed his gender. That is for him/her to decide and deal with and be supported but not at the expense of me, my daughters and my fellow woman. It doesn't mean we can't be supportive, just not give up our very identity.

Bold fail...

Occasionally I find myself thinking "am I missing something?", especially when someone who I'd normally consider sensible comes out with some unequivocally pro-trans.

But, I think that's a good thing. It makes sure I don't find myself taking an embedded stance on things. I pretty much argue with myself.

Each time, I come out more strongly gender critical than I was before...looking at evidence, at stories, at what's happening - I never come away thinking "the current trans orthodoxy is reasonable".

No, and every time an organisatiion goes along with the TWAW or a meeting gets cancelled or a board taken down I get more angry. It is never wrong to stand up against bullies who will take your voice and your rights away.

I'm just dropping in a link to Iris Child's poem on what happened in 2017 when a meeting venue was cancelled:

oh, dear, what can the matter be?
there's a debate in the community library
it's run by women, although they've invited me
asked me to offer my views
they want to discuss the new laws on equality
women and girls and transgender identity
but if I go they will mention biology
let's all stay home and refuse cont...

irischild.blogspot.com/2017/09/fuck-some-terfs-up.html

No. The opposite. I came into this thinking that of course there would be a way to defend women's rights without throwing old school transsexuals under the bus.

I no longer think that.

And as every example of anti-woman activism occurs - the bullying, the doxxing, the bomb threats, the silencing, the gaslighting - I become more convinced.

Women first. Always. No pasaran.

Women first. Always. No pasaran.

This.

I think the more information one has, the more difficult it is.

For example, I have looked at pictures of bei-vaginas in medical journals. I have read the details. I cannot unsee these images.

How do we have a society which values women so little that it is accepted a woman can be created through surgery, or a woman can be un-womanned through surgery?

It is not about individuals or hate for people who follow this path. It is a question about why that path even exists.

It is about the idea that womanhood can be created or destroyed by surgery.

Neo vaginas, that should have read

No. Socialisation made fear for for other people’s outcomes initially but education has made me realise they have to sort those outcomes out, not me.

When I read all those careful, compassionate analyses from gender critical people - and the counterargument is just throwing accusations and threats. They can't even define "woman". I'm usually a person who can argue either side in any given debate. Even when I'm part of an argument I'm making the other party's points for them in my head. With transgenderism I'm just sitting there baffled. There simply is no coherent alternative to a gender critical view presented.

Nah we're not wrong.

Talking about all this tonight with my kids- they were asking what I was up to on my phone. So we ended up chatting I said, some men who like to identify as women want people to expand the definition of women to include them. My ds who is 7 said “we’ll you can’t do that, because then you won’t be individual.”
Even my 7 year old boy can understand this. We are not wrong.

Yes, I worry. Because I know there are genuine people out there with actual dysphoria who are feeling terrible about themselves and I worry they may see all this and that their real struggles are being forgotten among all the shouting. I worry that there are people who cannot see the real arguments, who just see all the fury and feel under attack.

I don’t like to see people getting hurt, whoever they are.

That said, when I re-examine how I feel, I just cannot change my thoughts that women’s rights are being trampled over by other people and I can’t dtay quiet about that.

The whole thing is a terrible, terrible mess. I wish it weren’t so, but it is.

Men with dysphoria don't fall into the concern of women when one has a feminist hat on, though. They may fall into one's concern on a human level, but to bring them into the sphere of Feminism is to divert. The arrogance of the medical, political and legal establishments to allow men to be treated as women and think we should budge up without complaint is astounding to me now.

If the desire to not be the sex you were born is so strong, be trans. Massive support all round for that, I'm sure. But to become part of group and demand its redefinition whereby that original group is then undefined and its oppression unmeasurable? No way, Jose.

How can it be wrong to push back against that?

Jean Hatchet on last night's exchange:

Woman last night : “really it’s a shame you all have to waste your time on the trans issue when there’s so much to do in feminism”

No. There isn’t. All the rest depends on this. If men can say they are women and women have to believe them - they killed feminism. It’s over.

When men take the word “woman” from women and use it for themselves it is the most aggressive collective act of male violence against women and girls you will see in your lifetime.

These men know .... oh yes they know... that if we can’t define “woman” ... we can’t name our oppressors “male”. We can’t fight them. We can’t overthrow them.

Let this pass and it’s over women. The whole game is up.

Fight now. For feminism and for your lives as women. (Do read the full thread and exchanges with commenters.)

twitter.com/JeanHatchet/status/1046022461945524225

That last line gives me the chills. Eve of battle chills.