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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Do you ever worry we’re wrong?

151 replies

liltclassic · 28/09/2018 17:51

About the trans debate? I don’t believe trans-women are women, and I think the concept of being able to self ID would be detrimental to women’s rights. But with the opposition to us, the many arguments with people about it, the accusations of being transphobic, sometimes I really worry that I’m wrong and that I will be on the wrong side of history. Does this ever worry anyone? I keep doubting myself.

OP posts:
FlaviaAlbia · 28/09/2018 20:23

No.

If I was wrong then it would mean male rapists being put in female prisons is fine if they identify as female.

That's never going to be right.

NobodyToVoteForNow · 28/09/2018 20:24

These threads crop up quite often and each time I'm more certain than ever that the answer is 'no'.

DarthVadersLightSide · 28/09/2018 20:25

No, I have been thinking about this since 2013, when I got my first taste of this ideology. It struck me as misogynistic, selfish, jealous and anti-feminist then and nothing i have seen since has changed my mind. It is full of individuals who simultaneously delight in claiming women’s historical and biological oppression as their own and disclaiming women’s own lived experience of it.

There is no sympathy or empathy there for women’s struggle or suffering, past or present, concerns are mocked or dismissed. Its just MRA in a new pink dress.

Furx · 28/09/2018 20:25

I question myself constantly on this.

And each time I think it through from first principles I actually get angrier.

I am fucking FUMING about GirlGuides.

AngryAttackKittens · 28/09/2018 20:25

If we were wrong that would mean that it was perfectly reasonable, and in fact a thing to be celebrated, that feminine boys should be castrated, and butch girls have their breasts removed.

We're not wrong.

PosieRulzOk · 28/09/2018 20:28

But if I'm honest, I'd always thought it - I'd been allowing myself to be conditioned and persuaded otherwise so as not to offend feelz. I also hadn't weighed up how much many women were still oppressed and abused and manipulated by men; I feel angry as it's quite frankly offensive now. Especially as I feel so strongly that the idea of a 'woman's identity' being about clothes and a pink brain is an incredibly oppressive message.

When I think it through, I agree with Peterson, no one knows what it's like to be anyone else, so an 'identity' is merely dressing up.

Pacers · 28/09/2018 20:38

An example.

There is a thread on AIBU about a young girl treated shamefully at school over her period

A poster has, quite rightly, observed that there is a potential course of action under the Equality Act, since the school’s toilet policy could be read as discriminating against female children.

If menstruation is decoupled from “woman/girl”, even that slim chance of achieving a level playing field would be gone.

So, no. Not wrong.

Hideandgo · 28/09/2018 20:38

I am very certain you are all wrong. I’ve thought about it and thought about it, spoken to friends and family, gay and straight, tried to see your viewpoint but I just can’t make myself think like you lot do. The mask of reason slips over and over again on the anti trans threads and the vitriol and othering and narrowmindness just seeps through. Some of you may have the best intentions but many of you really don’t. You hide it ok for a few posts but can’t resist a sneer or backhanded dig at trans people eventually. So it’s clear the sentiment behind the arguments. I just can’t even make myself agree with you no matter how much I think about it.

pennydrew · 28/09/2018 20:41

Hideandgo 🙄 ‘othering’ you’re ridiculous

SlowlyShrinking · 28/09/2018 20:41

The mask of reason slips over and over again on the anti trans threads

So you’re saying that gender critical posters are right, you just don’t think they express themselves in a suitably nice manner?

pennydrew · 28/09/2018 20:43

Hideandgo
Please, explain what is ‘wrong’ about this ( without insults and generalisations, be specific )

Women should be able to maintain their existing sex based rights in law.

AngryAttackKittens · 28/09/2018 20:43

So it's OK for boys to be castrated because they like feminine things, and the reason it's OK is that you think the women here express themselves in an unkind manner?

That's certainly an, um, interesting moral framework you have there.

MaisyPops · 28/09/2018 20:43

hide
The vast majority of posters on here (including people with stronger views than me who I may not agree with) don't post hate towards trans people. Transphobic posts get deleted.
They are not anti trans people.
They are anti TRA and anti women rhetoric.

Gooseflesh · 28/09/2018 20:43

Nope
Aaaand more Nopes
And a couple more for luck

Sarahconnor1 · 28/09/2018 20:50

No.

It is ok for women to say no. In fact it's essential

SittingAround1 · 28/09/2018 20:51

No.

Any movement which says that you are 'phobic' or wrong for stating basic biological facts or quoting the dictionary is never going to get my support.

Anlaf · 28/09/2018 20:53

No

I still conclude that we are living through the preconditions for totalitarianism.
Yes

I do regularly challenge my thinking, and I engage with people who think different.

But no movement which requires total adherence, and which tries so hard to shut women up, could ever be "right"

Latinista · 28/09/2018 20:56

Nope. In fact I think we are not being vocal or contrary enough about it.

ICantBelieveIDidThis · 28/09/2018 20:57

Are we wrong? No.

Could we lose? Yes.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 28/09/2018 20:57

Hideandgo, I am intrigued by your post and I have read it several times over trying to find your argument for why we are wrong, but I can't. Even if it is true that you sometimes see vitriol (and fair dos, I am sure you will have seen anger) that doesn't have any bearing on the truth and validity of the facts and arguments raised.
I can only conclude that you are fine with castrating kids but we are wrong because we are nasty.

MarklesMerkin · 28/09/2018 20:58

Nope. I have a trans family member who agrees. He is also fucked off with TRAs who have made his life (and many other trans peoples lives) even more difficult.

CaptainMarvelDanvers · 28/09/2018 21:01

It took me a lot of thinking and arguing with myself to get to this point. I think it does no one good staying in an echo chamber so I don’t try to hide myself from opinions that I might not like, I read and listen to them then when I’m walking my dog in the morning I have a long think, debating in my head the different point of views.

It’s talking with people off the internet that really makes you realise that no one actually believes that you can change biological sex.

Politelygiveszerofucks · 28/09/2018 21:01

No. Next?

AngryAttackKittens · 28/09/2018 21:03

Excellent username there.

groundcontroltomontydon · 28/09/2018 21:13

No.
I think we'd become complacent. I think we'd forgotten how hard women had to fight for the rights we have and I think we were taking those rights for granted. We'll always have to defend them and we'll always be abused and defamed for doing so. Just as well we're made of stern stuff.