Do you ever worry we’re wrong?

[liltclassic]

About the trans debate? I don’t believe trans-women are women, and I think the concept of being able to self ID would be detrimental to women’s rights. But with the opposition to us, the many arguments with people about it, the accusations of being transphobic, sometimes I really worry that I’m wrong and that I will be on the wrong side of history. Does this ever worry anyone? I keep doubting myself.

Meant to add - it is not possible to change sex.

No, because my feminism centres women and girls for a very good reason.

OP?

I think dominant ideologies can be wrong - one only has to look at turn of the century eugenics and how that led to sterilise and euthanise people, and the people who did it genuinely believed that they were acting scientifically for the good of the population.

So, being the dominant political force does not make something right.

I do not know how we articulate women’s experiences over centuries and across places if we cannot articulate that these experiences have been shaped by reproductive function. It is that simple. It does not matter what hook you want to hang on it, if we cannot talk about maternal mortality, female feticide, rape, male on female violence, the need for maternity care and provision, the fact that many more women live in poverty as a result of child-rearing, all of these things which effect human females, then most of women’s history and women’s struggles for equality becomes meaningless.

Acknowledging the embodied material condition of femaleness and the impact on women’s lives is not focusing on genitalia, it is not biological essentialism or determinism, it is a necessary tool to articulate, engage with and negotiate being female. How can that be ‘on the wrong side of history’? History has lasted millennia and women’s voices only started to be listened to in any real number in the last one hundred years. We are only on the wrong side of history if you regard women’s ability to articulate and campaign for their needs as a blip in the normal order of things (the absence of women historically, in the public sphere and written, civil world).

Yes, Datun?

Some really interesting replies here. I know logically that I’m right. I’m left wing and mix with mostly left wing people, and a lot of their thought process extends no further than thinking it’s right to support the trans cause. That said, one (male) friend who called me a ‘transphobic bigot’ when I first mentioned my concerns has now taken on board what I’ve said & agrees with my concerns over self ID.

Although I know a lot of people who don't "get it" yet, I don't know of anyone who has "reverse peak-t'd" once they've seen it. Once you see, you can't unsee . it's not a surface-level thing.

This. Like many lefties my age I was an unquestioning ally too. The audacity of Lily Madigan caught my attention and coincided with me breastfeeding a constantly hungry baby so I had a bit more time to research stuff than I would ordinarily. (I did also stare lovingly in my baby's eyes and not just at the phone screen honest). I hate conflict and I feel scared to be on the opposite side to where the power is. I often wish somebody could persuade me I'm wrong but it hasn't happened yet.

I don’t no. And believe me I’m the kind of person who asks myself this a lot.

NO. NO. NO.

Like others, I did my worrying about that before I ever started posting here and elsewhere. I spent hours trawling the internet for scientific research and people's experiences, trying to square the circle, and when I found that the more I learned, the less the I could support transgenderism, I was afraid of what sort of person I was becoming. I've accepted it now, and I don't think the GC position is wrong at all. What I worry about now is that we will lose the argument anyway. Posters on here say that people don't really believe that TWAW, but I think enough of them do. Maybe I spend too much time reading Twitter.

The truth is that I just don't believe that men can be women, or women can be men, and I can't believe anything is going to convince me otherwise. I am a woman because I am an adult human female. Not because I have any particular kinds of thoughts or feelings, or because I've decided that that's what I'm most happy with.

I believe that people can be utterly repulsed and devastated by their own bodies, not just with regard to their sex organs, but their weight, their faces, one or more of their limbs, etc. I believe that people can be uncomfortable with or dismayed by the stereotypes society has traditionally foisted upon people of their sex, and the limitations that they feel are imposed on them just because they are female. Or male, for that matter. But having issues with your body or how society treats you does not mean that you must be something other than what you are, and society shouldn't be forced to pander to the idea that it does by effectively doing away with essential sex-based rights while simultaneously spouting off about protecting the most vulnerable.

Men and women deserve comfort and dignity in hospital wards, changing rooms and many other facilities, and for women (and maybe men, in limited circumstances? But probably not really if I'm honest) the added consideration of their safety means that single-sex provision is absolutely essential. This ideology threatens that: I'm not wrong about it and I'm not backing down.

I've never been more sure of anything in my life

this

I'm not a person who is sure about stuff. but on this? the complete lack of proper arguments against the gender critical view is a bit of a give away to be honest

OP, my DH told me to “be careful” about some of my views, and expressing them. He was particularly concerned that they might undermine my career prospects! My gut reaction was “wtf?!?”. Then I took a deep breath and have calmly been explaining GRA, the implications and how these could put our own dd and a whole generation of women in potential danger. No shouting, no radical rants. Just facts, an adult conversation. He gets it. He’s shocked, he’s angry, but he gets it.

No because to believe I was wrong would mean accepting that putting male murderers and rapists in jail with trapped and vulnerable women is a positive thing.

I can never support an ideology that leads to such horrific human rights abuse as that.

By ‘the turn of the century’ I mean late nineteenth into twentieth century.

What about if we only take the last thirty years of history, when the concept of ‘gender’ overtook the momentum of women’s studies and the women’s movement, alongside the rise of queer theory and the notion of identity in mainstream sociology; challenges to the use of HRT in women and subsequent decrease in prescriptions, which meant pharmaceuticals needed a new market, and the readiness of endocrinology to tamper with natal biological being; the prevalent neoliberal ‘choice’ ideology; the creation of online communities which are, or can be, silos; and the (valid) successful campaigns for same sex rights? Are gender critical feminists on the wrong side of contemporary history?

The interactions of these things are not clear (to me, at least, but I will venture one observation. What is going on is multi-causal, and where the power is, and how historians interpret it will not become clear for several decades, and how historians interpret it will depend on their own position.

It was a thread on here last week that really opened my eyes. One group of men (grc) telling another group of men (self-id) where the boundaries for women’s spaces and identities lie. Fuck that. Women’s spaces are for women, biological women. And it is the right of biological women to decide if men can come in. And if some say no then it’s no, it doesn’t matter if some say yes. Prior to that thread (and finding out a rapist was given a grc in prison and put in the women’s estate) I would have said transwomen with a grc are ok to use women’s spaces.

I’ve no problem with additional spaces and awards and shortlists and prizes and panel show spaces etc etc for transpeople and I think the country should fund services that cater to transpeople who do not feel comfortable in services for their biological sex.

The safeguarding stuff with the gg and schools has in addition really upset me. If this is the right side of history, why does it seem to rely on putting children at risk? Also the mutilation of bodies in the name of progression - is risky surgery with potentially horrific side effects and life long medication the right future? I hope people look back on this period with compassion that we were trying to find the best way to help people rather than thinking we were looking to perform experimental surgery and treatment on distressed youngsters.

Never. I am sitting here at the back of the Manchester meeting in tears after Jean's section. Watch that. You will never, never convince me that safeguarding should be weakened.

I'm interested in the other sides views and how they got there, e.g. the recent transman ANA thread.

But I generally have conviction in my beliefs, although I'm very open to being challenged in them and if someone can convince me with logic and reasoned debate that I'm wrong I'll switch sides. Hasn't happened yet and don't think it's likely to!

No. I do not think I am wrong. It terrifies me how mainstream nonsense words or phrases such as 'all genders' or 'cis woman' or 'do you identify as male or female' are becoming as well as how different HCPs now have to unconditionally accept children who declare they are trans as normal and progress with 'transing' them.

No we are most definitely not wrong. After being directed to Twitter and seeing the absolute pure hatred toward women by a lot of trans and their supporters I realised we have a huge battle on our hands, but we can survive it if we stick together and help each other.

Let's see.. Karen White, Jessica aka Martin Ponting -convicted penis owning rapists placed in women's prisons.

Our fave NUS rep with the willy-waving-at-bus-stops fetish.

The Greens and David Challenor.

Women sexually assaulted on closed psych wards.

The ever fragrant misogynist in chief, Dr Ade.

And the never ending authoritarian drive to get us to parrot falsehoods and the closing down of discussion.

Nope. Not worrying I'm on the wrong side.

Yes. And then I see more madness discussed on here and just think Wtf. How can this be happening in 2018.
And I also think about my children and how I don't want them to grow up on a world where if they're gay or even if theyre just not totally conformant to gender norms, they'll have it decided for them by other that they're trans. Fuck that.

Nope. I'd thought all this through before I ever started discussing it in public, and it's the other side that could not possibly be more wrong.

Well I didn’t get here by giving this two minutes thought. As always, I always think quite deeply about issues concerning women’s rights. My instinct in terms of changes to the equalities act, was absolutely that it was wrong. Then I read some, I discussed it with people I respect and used my critical thinking to come to a firm but fair position. No argument presented to me by anyone with opposing views, has ever persuaded or shown me that the erosion of women’s rights and accepted terms we use to describe human biology, makes any sense or is fair.

Not any more. Honestly, I would love to be wrong on this one. I really would. Wouldn't it be amazing not to worry about predatory men abusing self ID?

I did at first but the logic became too strong