Do you ever worry we’re wrong?

[liltclassic]

About the trans debate? I don’t believe trans-women are women, and I think the concept of being able to self ID would be detrimental to women’s rights. But with the opposition to us, the many arguments with people about it, the accusations of being transphobic, sometimes I really worry that I’m wrong and that I will be on the wrong side of history. Does this ever worry anyone? I keep doubting myself.

God no.

I sometimes imagine talking to my great mother, a Victorian. And saying that in 2018, we are locking violent rapists up with incarcerated women, and those rapists are assaulting those women.

When she asks me why, I say because they tell everyone they're actually women. Biological women.

@liltclassic

I charge you to read a little of this thread. And then come back and see if you want to ask the same question.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

No. The longer this goes on the more our worst fears are being vindicated

Absolutely not.

Having looked at all sides I can confidently say we are on the right side of history.

When councillor judith Blake of Leeds cc cancels a womens meeting last minute - then tweets mealy mouthed comments about celebrating the Suffragette movement and 100 years of votes for women... Then you know that you're not crazy.

Whatever problems transpeople face, whatever their need and wants are, women and girls need sex segregated spaces.

The very fact that the loud boys don't see this speaks volumes

Not really. I think there are issues about self-ID and the defining of women that should be discussed without people being called transphobic.

I don't believe that trans activism is a plot of misogynistic men to groom and abuse children and erase women.

I think what we may be looking at ultimately (and hopefully to my mind) is the death throes of conventional gender identity and moving towards saying people are biologically male or female but they don't have to fit templates of gender and they don't have to change their bodies or even image necessarily to live how they would like.

Yes, all the time. But then I think about the actual facts and not just feeling uncomfortable about not being liberal and fluffy and then all doubt dissipates. The definition of the word woman can’t be up for grabs and it isn’t purely on theoretical bases - it’s already eroding many of our hard won rights and boundaries.

No. Humans have human rights.

Trans people have human rights.

Women's rights are human rights and protect women because we have female biology an as a result we are especially vulnerable to a multitude of risks and threats stemming almost entirely from men's behaviour

Calling men women erases women's legally mandated and protected female human rights.

While may be selfishly and 'innocently' (and unfairly) sought by some males as validation for their 'feelings' and wishes, it is illiegal, disrespectful and openly abusive to women.

Opening the door just a crack out of 'kindness' (and without women's consent) has led to the open and unashamed abuse of women by the many.

Want proof? Look at who has benefited from these changes. Not women.

No. Back when I was unthinkingly accepting of the trans position I looked down on those who were “bigots”. Then I started to actually look at the arguments (occasionally hard to find as there are bigots spouting off too). Then I applied some logic and some deductive reasoning. That resulted in me feeling increasingly uneasy.

And the. I peak transed with the GG affair.

I don't believe that trans activism is a plot of misogynistic men to groom and abuse children and erase women.

I sincerely believe that it has attracted people who have that goal in mind.

This issue comes up regularly and I reflect on it regularly.

Earlier thread: Are We the Baddies?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301684-Are-we-the-baddies

I still reflect on this issue and I look at the way we're asked to distort language, culture, and science to conform to what is demanded of us to indulge the self-identity of narcissists.

I still conclude that we are living through the preconditions for totalitarianism.

I think it's ALWAYS good to question whether we are right or wrong. But don't listen to those who shout down measured, respectful debate - that is always wrong!

This, totally. We should always be prepared to keep stating and re examining our reasons for our thinking, not just say 'I'm right BECAUSE I AM SO THERE'.

It's also important to remember than trans people and TRAs are not the same.

With that in mind, I'm fine with where I am on this.

Yes, it's a thought that returns to me again and again. But then I reflect on what the gender identity ideology is, what it means in terms of the knock-on effects, the arguments presented in its support, and the Orwellian ways of thinking that are necessary to enforce it, and then I think "no, yet again, on balance, this is the side I should be on".

I don't mind thinking in these terms. I don't want to feel so absolutely certain about this that I never need to revisit my thinking.

I worry all the time. But then I reflect, I go back to first principles, and examine the evidence. And then someone like Dr Harrop insists that the dictionary definition of woman is now transphobic, and it's easy to see why we have to keep talking about this. Because if the definition of what I actually am is deemed offensive, then I feel like the next step will be that my very existence as a unique category different to males is really the problem. Let's face it, the underlying issue here is actual hatred of females. The separation of males/females into two sexes will always be there. It's how our species survives. I want females to be their own persons, with their own boundaries, and their own identities. So we have to be able to talk about this openly and honestly.
I have never heard a really convincing argument by a trans activist as to why we should all re-define words/laws to deny obvious biological reality just to accommodate their specific beliefs. Their ideas around sex and gender honestly make zero sense to me no matter how much I learn about them. The trans activist argument basically always boils down to "because I said so and you have to be nice to me!" Of course you should always aim to treat people with courtesy and respect. But I will not accept coercive, aggressive, hostile tactics to force others to accept what is really an ideology just like a religion. Especially when it comes to something as obvious and fundamental as sex.
So it's good to ask, keep learning, keep your mind open to change if new information comes in.
But after looking into this thoroughly, really thinking about this...
I want to stand with the females, mothers, lesbians, girls, rape victims, ordinary women.
Not the alleged flasher, extreme pornography advocate, person who thinks their father that was arrested for torturing/raping a 10 year old child is a suitable person to involve in their politics, or vlogger who says lesbians should have sex with penises in order to trans inclusive...
This is about women's rights. The right of every female to say NO.

I am less worried about right and wrong. I am worried that no debate is allowed on such fundamental importance to society.

Free speech is really, really important.

Whatever the issue here, if the tactics used are condoned (take a bow Leeds Council) they can be used on other issues. —did one of the major parties just have a problem with anti Semitism?—

Let’s have the debate and then I will decide where I stand - though almost certainly in favour of retaining women’s spaces, tempered with a desire to take on board the needs of those with a tested and proven gender dysphoria. No self-ID.

No. I think we're canaries in the coalmine.

I was an absolute unquestioning ally before I saw what was actually being said and done in the name of trans activism. If you are someone who is good at seeing the big picture and implications of things, once you see it, you realise there is a great deal at stake.

And it certainly isn't about "fearing" or being "phobic" of people with gender dysphoria and transsexuals (or not for me, anyway). They are ultimately going to be thrown under the bus along with women and gay people as part of this ideology drive. It is dangerous totalitarianism pure and simple and has wide ramifications for the whole of society and freedom of speech. The trans issue isn't the whole of it , there is something bigger playing out I think. Notably, aside from fundamentalist religion, it's the single biggest attempt to roll back women's rights we've had in countries like ours in years. And I do also believe it is gay eugenics.

Although I know a lot of people who don't "get it" yet, I don't know of anyone who has "reverse peak-t'd" once they've seen it. Once you see, you can't unsee . it's not a surface-level thing.

In the long run, it is about systems and power and an attempt to re-engineer people's conception of the truth and ability to name it. Using the "weaknesses" and loopholes of liberal societies against us. Using known propaganda techniques. It is realising that which alarms me the most I think. There is something systemic going on here.

Never.

As of the very latest poll 82% of the population agree with us. Don't forget that - no matter what survey is done, whether professionally or straw poll, the majority of the population opposes self-id. And that is with women being silenced. Imagine how many more people would oppose self-id if they knew it's not for post-op transwomen.

If I ever had any doubts at all, I only have to remember what the domestic abuse survivor whose abuser was a self-identified transwoman told me: "I had nowhere to go. Everywhere I looked for help, he could have talked his way into. Nowhere was safe."

The voluntary adoption of self-id has already cost us so much and we stand to lose so much more. Sports has only just started to go, shortlists, prizes, Girl Guides, support groups for all aspects of womanhood, scholarships etc etc. Every single space that goes to a self-identified transwoman is a space taken away from a woman who needs it.

I have the advantage of plenty of Catholic guilt to keep me full of self-examination. And yet every time I examine my motives, I am brought back to the heart of why this is important - Women and Girls deserve freedom, safety, and their own boundaries. That's why I do what I do. It has absolutely nothing to do with transpeople at all. Not my circus, not my monkeys.

Let your monkeys out of your circus to shit all over women and girls, however, and I will get some big fuck off nets and round all the little fuckers up and send them packing.

So, do I think I'm wrong for standing up for women and girls against people who don't actually seem to care about them at all? Well, in what other sphere of life would we question whether it was good to stand up to protect someone vulnerable? I mean, for crying out loud, it's the throwback accusation that transpeople are the most vulnerable people in the world ever, and the only reason that accusation has traction is because we understand it is right and good to protect the vulnerable.

So a) I evaluate the evidence and see that women and girls are extremely vulnerable and benefit enormously from sex-based spaces and services. And b) anyone who would take that off them, even for the purpose of helping another vulnerable group, is totally wrong. And c) transpeople are not the most oppressed subgrouping of humans ever, so they really don't have a case for pissing all over women's rights.

Used to be a head in the sand liberal on this, so I understand the initial conflicting feelings. But no, I'm content that standing for the vulnerable is the right thing to do.

I don't believe that trans activism is a plot of misogynistic men to groom and abuse children and erase women.

I sincerely believe that it has attracted people who have that goal in mind.

So do I. And no, I don't worry that we're wrong - I know we're right.

I'm a firm believer that you can't change sex, ever. However I get very confused on my stance regarding gender and how that's just a social construct etc etc etc and I struggle to come off the fence because I just don't know the answer!

I know for certain, however, that CIS is bullshit and someone who is X which identifies with society's general view of X should not have to add anything to their identify to contrast with a minority. I hope that someone can make sense of what I just said! I still have baby brain.

I’ve wobbled a bit in the past.

Not anymore. I just have to look at dd and the world she is growing up in. I can’t sit back and allow the dictionary definition of her biology be turned into an offensive word.
No one prepared me for this. I was brought up to smile sweetly, take care of my looks and appease the menfolk. I’m not playing that game anymore and I will be damned if I’m letting anyone take away safe spaces for women.
I’m doing it for her

I’m doing it for her

I don't have kids but my little brother has two school-aged girls and I wake up daily and worry about their futures in this context.

No. Because Sport, Prisons, grotesque surgical mutilations, sterilisation of teenagers, and on top of all that...men with a kink just taking the piss adopting different personae and wearing dresses on certain days of the week, accepting awards meant for women and demanding we all smile and cheer and remember to use their preferred pronouns of the day.

Plus in 20 years as a midwife I never once threw the dice and assigned a sex to a newborn baby.

It's all bull 💩 as far as I'm concerned.

I used to think all trans people were old school transsexuals and believe that whilst I can't understand their dysphoria, I support their right to transition and aim to be as close to the sex/gender they identify with.

I still agree with that. I still think that people with gender dysphoria should be supported with medical transition if needed. I'm still happy to share my single sex spaces with post OP transsexuals who've gone through necessary steps (although I'm aware not all this board will agree with me, but that's ok). I don't believe you can change sex, but I'm happy to accept a transwoman like that as a woman in practical senses.

What I discovered via MN is that far from the trans movement supporting the people I support (including a friend of mine), there are sections forming TRA groups with awful anti women rhetoric, they harass and bully women and are somehow trying to claw their way into positions of power whilst trying to silence debate. These people push for a demedicalisation of trans issues so the trans people who I wholeheartedly support could find themselves unable to get the medical and social support they need because a nasty sub group have decided that some eyeliner and a penis makes a woman. They try to argue that women aren't women but 'people with a cervix' and that lesbians should accept 'lady penis'. These people claim freedom of expression but then block anyone who might have different views because anything other than a comfy echo chamber is literal violence.

What MN taught me is that there will be many people holding the views I hold without realising there is a vicious and nasty underbelly of people determined to erode women's rights.

I don't believe the general public support the TRA ideology.
I do think the general public support the right of people (including trans people) to live a life free from oppression and discrimination.