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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you ever worry we’re wrong?

151 replies

liltclassic · 28/09/2018 17:51

About the trans debate? I don’t believe trans-women are women, and I think the concept of being able to self ID would be detrimental to women’s rights. But with the opposition to us, the many arguments with people about it, the accusations of being transphobic, sometimes I really worry that I’m wrong and that I will be on the wrong side of history. Does this ever worry anyone? I keep doubting myself.

OP posts:
wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 28/09/2018 21:21

No.

MustBeDreaming · 28/09/2018 21:24

Not any more. I used to be a handmaid and was heavily questioning whether I was trans because I am gender nonconforming, to the extent of wondering whether I'd be happier if my body were different. Mumsnet peak transed me a year or two back and made me realise that I was internalising misogynistic rubbish about what women are supposed to be.

I am so bloody thankful I got outside my echo chamber and read this forum. I am now much more comfortable in my own skin, with who and what I am, and I owe that to radical feminism. You posters on the FWR boards are saving people.

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 28/09/2018 21:40

Nope. And the conviction that I'm not grows more and more each day.

arranfan · 28/09/2018 21:54

Paul Embery, FBU - commenting on the cancellation 28 Sept. of the original venue for WPUK Leeds:

I believe that, in years to come, groups such as WomansPlaceUK, who are experiencing the most disgraceful vitriol and bullying in their defence of the simple concept of womanhood, will be remembered as the matchgirls and suffragettes are remembered. They will deserve no less.

twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1045750005854863360

Is it the oppressed or those who seek to tyrannise them who seek to forbid the other from gathering together and exercising their human rights?

About those Human Rights that have may been abrogated by that cancellation - please read the full thread:

Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.

Article 10, Human Rights Act 1998

twitter.com/RadFemLawyer/status/1045770620712222726

Howcansanepeoplesaynothing · 28/09/2018 21:55

Not really. I imagine alternate conversations with my grandchildren asking, “How did it happen? There had been so many scandals in living memory. How didn’t anyone spot the parallels?”

I think of having to explain the struggle of the decriminalisation of homosexuality, of civil rights in the 60s, of the fight against apartheid, and why I just couldn’t make room for 0.5% of the population. I don’t think there is any comparison in those examples of people wanting to live their lives and unjust and unnecessary law preventing them going about their legitimate business, so I’m good with that imaginary future chat.

I think of talking about the scandals of the Churches and schools and Rotherham and institutional abuse. Of cover up at all levels of society, blind eyes turned by every agency, of how thousands of people restricted their lives by joining the church or serving in institutions in exchange for easy access to children and vulnerable people. About how there were the good priests and nuns, and only a minority who had malintent for example. And I don’t want to say, no one could have seen it coming. Because that parallel is blatant.

AyeRobot · 28/09/2018 22:06

Having watched the live feed from Manchester, I am even more No.

My scale is now where I am I on a scale of 0 to Posie Parker. (like the how cold am I on a scale of 0 to Lenny Kravitz, but less funny)

AngryAttackKittens · 28/09/2018 22:10

0 to "fuck off, you manipulative, woman hating arseholes".

AyeRobot · 28/09/2018 22:12

To add, how little must one have thought about women and the effect of male supremacy (violent or otherwise) on them to think that women speaking up about this are wrong. Or to live in some strange utopian world where being an equalist and opposing the TRA stuff makes any sense.

AyeRobot · 28/09/2018 22:18

Sorry, not opposing. Equalism doesn't mean free rein and letting your brains fall entirely out. The pretence of pragmatism falls down when you ignore the statistics - which will become obsolete if you have your way)

KatVonGulag · 28/09/2018 22:31

I worry the whole thing is a complete mess. I worry about those with true gender disphoria, I'm seeing the effects of this all and it's sad. I worry about how we protect women and girls from predatory behaviour.
I'm wondering if there is any compromise.

This all will pass. You can't change what it means to be a woman.

I am the first and the last.
I am the honoured one and the scorned one.
I am the whore, and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am the mother and the daughter.
I am she whose wedding is great, and I have not taken a husband.
I am knowledge, and ignorance.
I am shameless; I am ashamed.
I am strength and I am fear.
I am foolish, and I am wise.
I am godless and I am one whose god is great.

Suppressed words from 2000 years ago. We are what we are.

KatVonGulag · 28/09/2018 22:31

Plus Gin

TigerDroveAgain · 28/09/2018 22:32

No. And more no every day.

birdbandit · 28/09/2018 22:41

No.

There are two, very different things happening here.

Adults who transition, and children who are transitioned.

Everyday we see the things that never happen, happening. Things perpetuated by adult men.

We sadly live in a world where women are not believed when they say a man did something bad to her.

Women are not being believed now, when we say "this has the potential for harm to us", not believed by some, whereas others don't care.

Kids:

We are all completely correct to challenge gender stereotypes, to challenge the sexing of personality. But it is the roles that need to change, not the bodies of people who don't display the "correct" behaviour.

Who is talking to the kids about transitioning? The adults.

Farinthepast · 28/09/2018 22:48

Having been married to a man who was sexually aroused by dressing in women's clothing and consorted with other similar men who now would fall under the trans umbrella, I certainly don't believe that self ID should be allowed because there are people who would claim it with a sexual motivation. Women's spaces need to stay free of penises. That's not transphobic, that's safeguarding!

FoldyRoll · 28/09/2018 22:54

Yes. All the time. And then I review all the arguments and the evidence and the behaviour of the parties involved and come back to the same conclusion every single time.

Questioning and challenging your own ideas, thoughts, beliefs and in particular, assumptions is healthy. How often do you think TRAs question if they're right?

Badgerthebodger · 28/09/2018 22:57

What I love most about this thread is that I’m seeing usernames that I don’t instantly recognise, so either everyone’s name changing or the lurkers are delurking to say their piece. To all lurkers: bloody good on you. Welcome to the conversation Smile

Personally: no, I don’t feel on the wrong side of history. Leaving aside the polarities in all of this, the ones on the wrong side of history are never the peaceful ones, those who welcome debate, those who question doctrine and, well, women.

I’m sure there are lots of examples someone could grub up from yesteryear, but realistically how many women go out of their way to start wars? How many women, compared to men, commit violence? Commit sexual violence? Take specific careers and positions so they can access and groom potential victims? How many women give up years of their life training and volunteering and cultivating an upstanding member of the community reputation, so they can abuse with impunity?

So for me: I don’t think you can change sex. I was, and have always been, and still am, happy to be kind to those few people who have genuine dysphoria and cannot live with themselves in the body they were born with. Women have been sharing spaces with these people for years on an honour code system with no problem.

I cannot ever envisage that the current cohort of transgender activists could ever see things from women’s point of view. I have seen nothing to even make me have the slightest inkling that these people care about women. In fact, I see the exact opposite - I see a group of men, who patently detest women, who want to wear womanhood like a costume.

If you can be born a male, then say you are a female just by your words, it makes a mockery of what it is to be female.

THAT’S what’s got us adult human females angry. We wear the scars of womanhood on our bodies. The bodies that grew breasts and had periods. The bodies which suffered the embarrassment of flooding menstrual blood through clothes, miscarriages and the blood that comes when you wipe the day after the too-rough sex that you never consented to but were too frightened to stop.

The bodies that wished for babies and couldn’t have babies, made babies who couldn’t be born, bodies who became pregnant, had abortions, never wanted babies. All these female bodies, doing what female bodies do. Just a few of the many reasons why trans women are not, and never will be, women.

You don’t get to dress up as a poor fascimile of us, police our speech, tell us to enjoy our erasure, tell us we can’t use our established language to describe our anatomy and experiences, tell us we’re making you feel “unsafe” just because we’re talking, tell us we shouldn’t and in actual fact we CAN’T exclude men, and think we’ll just roll over.

We’re women. Adult human females. We don’t have penises and we don’t want them in our spaces. We won’t shut up and we’re not on the wrong side of history.

We see you.

HarropShitman · 28/09/2018 23:04

No. But it's good you doubt, that means you're actually listening to all views. Unlike the other side of the "debate"

And I need to NC again, my username is making me vomit in my mouth a little.

GurlwiththeCurl · 28/09/2018 23:05

I have no doubts. I have been thinking about this issue for a long time, since a family member announced that they were trans. I felt uneasy then and I started to seek out information and found all of the amazing discussion, intelligent arguments and massive amounts of information on the MN FWR boards. I read widely every day and tweet when I can. This is one of the most important issues of my lifetime.

SciFiFan2015 · 28/09/2018 23:05

Yes. I worry it all the time. That's why I'm thankful for the people here. Whenever I doubt myself I read the words on FWR and I'm reassured.

Rebecca36 · 28/09/2018 23:07

Nope.

silentcrow · 28/09/2018 23:20

Great post Badger. And yes, it's lovely to see unfamiliar names - please keep posting! Nobody has eaten me yet, anyway Grin

CrackpotsArePots · 28/09/2018 23:33

Plop

FloralBunting · 28/09/2018 23:34

KatVonGulag, that verse you posted, I think I have it on an album I bought some time ago.

arranfan · 29/09/2018 00:04

The verse KatVonGulag posted is from gnostic manuscripts at Nag Hammadi: THE THUNDER, PERFECT MIND
Translated by George W. MacRae

gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html

WSPU · 29/09/2018 00:19

Not anymore. Biology is real. It just is.