What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

These constant appeals to female socialization aren't working.

They make me go "fuck off, mate" - even when they're right (which transactivists aren't).

Also I am happy to share spaces with HotRocker, in case that wasn't clear, because butch women are women. Repeat after me, Snappity!

Unlike some people I promise not to have it projected onto the sides of buildings, because when I read 1984 I didn't interpret it as a how-to book.

Yes LangCleg; too much compassion makes us into doormats.

I apologise if I’m offending people.

You're not. I just think there's a very specific case with a particular poster with um... a history of behaviour on here that would get me smitten for accurately describing, shall we say? And that some feel a jokey, matey tone with this person is highly inappropriate given the very personal hurt and offence caused to several FWR women.

There’s been an awful lot of finger wagging at us nasty feminists (or ‘so called feminists’ if you prefer) today.

It just bemuses me, probably not the finger wagers intent. Ho hum.

It just bemuses me, probably not the finger wagers intent. Ho hum.

I'm mostly giving it the eyebrow raise of amused dismissiveness.

Ahah.

I’m not so good at remembering incidents from thread to thread.

I can take finger wagging. It’s the accusations of hate speech which are disconcerting.

Elletorro i read back a bit i tihnk that you make some valid points with taking this forwards and testing it in the courts. we can talk all day about what we think something means but we are not a court of law thank god lol.

i fully agree with the statement
We will not be the judge of this, we can only persuade and present evidence to support our arguments. We will not succeed if we take the same “no debate” stance.

this applys to both sides as you say.

So Bespin

Can we present a solution that grants both transwomen and women privacy, dignity and safety?

We really don’t have to be at loggerheads. I think that finding a solution that works could head this off at the pass

Elletorro

at this point im really not sure, i think if this was around the GRA and the points that the womans place made then i think that definitions of trans and self id could be looked at, i dont know the answer to where the line goes. The third option is one if society restructured and supported it financially that could be an option for a lot of people, but this option is not an option if people simply say oh it would get sorted and of course people would have to build extra facilities having tried to get a gender neutral toilet put into a new council building which took about a year to apporve just one then im not overoptimistic this would be a starter. What i would be interesting in hearing is what the compromise position on both sides of this would actually be. At the moment people are not willing to except any and therefore it as you said either goes to court and we all abide by it or we just continue on.

I am quite prepared to lose this if that is where society is at and continue to fight for my rights knowing how people truely feel about us, i dislike this we are just going along with it because we have to thing. I am hopefully that society is in a place where the majority support us, but its never easy to know

@LemonJello
Thank you for your apology.
I was upset that you thought you had found common ground with a person who had stated that feminine women should be kept away from butch lesbians and masculine presenting women for their own safety, dignity and privacy. That for me is as far away from common ground as you can get. You did point out how offensive it is in the first instance, but then it read to me like you were like yeah that’s offensive but anyway...
I’m feeling incredibly frail and vulnerable at the moment, so probably have a stronger reaction than usual, and I know from reading your previous posts that you condemn this sort of crap in the strongest possible terms, so there are no hard feelings from me.

If Snappity could stop trying to pit straight/bi women against butch lesbians that would be great. We (collective not-lesbian gendercrit we) are not going to turn on lesbians no matter how much you would like us to.

HotRocker

These constant appeals to female socialization aren't working. You'd think the people making them would have noticed that by now and changed strategies, but I suppose that, threats, and baroque theories of biology are all they have really. Which is why #nodebate was the initial plan.

This. I have to say I find Rat's bombastic bluster quite amusing though. And desperate.

HotRocker I feel rotten for upsetting you. I do condemn this crap completely, thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

I am also guilty of using mumsnet as a sounding board to test out ideas for the real life activism that I do wrt women and girls rights. Using it like this means that I can be one step removed from the emotions involved which is sometimes necessary for me so that I am able to do the important real life campaigning that I am trying to do.

There is a lot of hurt and vulnerability behind what I am doing and I think that keeping it under control in myself makes me less aware of it in others. I shall be mindful of this.

hotrocker

We (collective not-lesbian gendercrit we) are not going to turn on lesbians no matter how much you would like us to.

No, we are not. And particularly not on behalf of vile homophobic and misogynistic opinion.

As the above sisterly reconciliation shows.

HotRocker here's from a straight ally. More power to you.

If funds permit, there should be a third space option. Three spaces covering female, male and unisex. After all, not everyone is a nice as India Willoughby, the various Lilies, Bespin, Snappity etc.

For whatever reason (safety, fear, religious, hygiene, privacy, rights etc), females do need some spaces to be free of those born male. So if funds do not permit, some spaces (women's refuges, prisons, loos, sport etc etc etc) must be segregated by sex. This is common sense and something that no-one should have to fight for or be fighting against.

Hotrocker

We are women. Butch, masculine looking and all the rest of it.

A butch woman - lesbian or otherwise - does not present the same level of statistical threat as a man does. To suggest that this is the case is not only offensive but indicates a complete lack of understanding of male vs female violent crime. Butch women are just as vulnerable to attack and male sexual violence as any other women.

FYI, in case there is any doubt: Putting a dress on and calling yourself "Beryl" does not alter any tendency you may have towards male pattern violence.

Hotrocker

AAK the only place certain posters are pushing me, is further towards political lesbianism! Far from scaring me off women, they are scaring me further away from men.

Funnily enough, the man who raped the poor transman who repeatedly shouted "I'm a man, I'm a man" still somehow knew that they had female biology

If certain posters had set out to make the women here want nothing to do with anyone with a penis ever again they really couldn't have done a better job. Good thing for DH that I already decided that I loved him before I encountered this lot!

A butch woman - lesbian or otherwise - does not present the same level of statistical threat as a man does. To suggest that this is the case is not only offensive but indicates a complete lack of understanding of male vs female violent crime. Butch women are just as vulnerable to attack and male sexual violence as any other women.

Personally I always feel a lot safer in spaces that include butch lesbians. Especially in dodgy situations - such as when male bodied people invade female only spaces.

To assume that those of us who have survived sexual trauma need to be kept safe from butch women is deeply offensive and shows a complete lack of understanding for how survivors of male sexual violence perceive and process potential threat levels.