What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

WhereDoWe

I agree.

Maybe as rad fems, we should in fact embrace this madness whole heartedly, campaign mightily for however many gender toilets (I read 98 genders) to make everyone feel safe and validated. Why only two genders are ever mentioned and fought over so fiercely is beyond me.
Also while this maybe tongue in cheek, maybe it's another avenue to fight back on, in the same vein as manfriday

I like this idea. It really highlights the difference between sex and gender and the problem of them being conflated.

Oi oi stop embellishing sex 😂😂😂

Snappity can you help me out?

You’ve said up thread at Tue 10-Jul-18 01:29:46 that regardless of whether they have a penis or vagina, whether they are fueled by testosterone or oestrogen - all belong in one space together.

I’ve read this post as this is something you do not agree with, but all your other posts here are saying you think women and trans women should share space.

So it would seem you also agree with regardless of whether they have a penis or vagina, whether they are fueled by testosterone or oestrogen - all belong in one space together.

Trans men can go where they like. Males should stay out of female spaces. Sex is based on reproductive role.

I have no issue at all with gender neutral toilets.

I think they're a really good idea.

Of course, it doesn't make sense for the women's toilets to become gender neutral because there are already too few women's toilets and there are always queues.

Women are also the ones most likely to ve taking young children to the toilets so they are more heavily used anyway.

It makes perfect sense to make the men's gender neutral - men can use them; transwomen can use them and it doesn't matter that they have male bodies; women who want to support gender neutral facilities can use them and women who can't wait in the queue in the women's can use them.

The same.can be applied to changing rooms and other support services.

Because still no one (outside of MN) has been able to explain why, in cases where it has happened, it is the women's facilities that must become gender neutral and not the men's.

Oi oi

There is nothing stupid in defending single sex spaces which I do - but trans women are women.

They're not though. They're just not.

And no matter how I try and understand how some people can possibly think that, I can't. Because it's simply not true.

It makes perfect sense to make the men's gender neutral - men can use them; transwomen can use them and it doesn't matter that they have male bodies; women who want to support gender neutral facilities can use them and women who can't wait in the queue in the women's can use them.

How do you make urinals gender (or sex) neutral?

Oh that's easy - just make more cubicles

Lazy

I agree. On average, women also spend more time in the toilets because of changing sanitary towels/tampons

How do you make urinals gender (or sex) neutral?

I think you are just trying to find problems now. They could be removed or made private?

When did stop getting everyone to read 1984 in schools?

Oi oi snap How do you make urinals gender (or sex) neutral?
A funnel

Snappity, I want a safe place for whatever you want to call the type of person who suffers violence because of the way their bodies appear due to some simple measurable chromosomal differences. I want it based on something measurable, where that measurement is seen the same way by all observers. I want that chmosonal difference respected because of abuse. If you also suffer abuse I want you protected. I want us both protected. Your abuse is not my abuse and it is emotionally abusive to imply that it is. Your abuse is not due to the same physical cause that mine is.

If you don't want to accept that, and equally won't accept private, secure unisex, you are saying that you don't care about my protection. Or how do you propose to protect me given that a male body is a threat and can trigger a flight response that means I would be excluded further from some aspects of public life?

I am trying to find olive branches. You are throwing punches.

I think a funnel is a Shewee

Of course if all women are saying they would prefer proper unisex cubicles and all transwomen are saying they would not, then we have a clear and measurable difference between women and transwomen.

Yes to an earlier point about expense and practicality. The same argument exists with disabled access. It can be done, but at this stage just having common goals would be useful

Why do urinals have to be? Some women don't mind sharing, men aren't complaining, acronyms can use urinals or cubicle. The more I think about it, the better this solution gets.

Thank you girldownunder, it was really confusing for me that Snappity seemed to be saying that spaces should be separate depending on whether a person has a penis or vagina, if they're trans...but not if they're not trans.

The more I think about it, the better this solution gets.

I agree. It would solve so many problems in one swift move. The same can be done for men's prisons, overnight accommodation, hospital wards, etc.

Unisex for men, transpeople and handmaidens/women who don't mind or see a difference between sexed bodies and separate Women Only for women who want/need sex segregation.

It is flawless.

And because there would be less demand for the women's, two cubicles could coverted to be a single sex disabled toilet in the women's too.

It really is win! win! win!

Yep. Maybe if a particular place is really flush with cash they can build an extra set of In Love With Stereotypes toilets for people who find men under 5ft8 and and women with short hair confusing. The "women's" can look like a Barbie dream house and the "men's" can have urinals shaped like formula one cars.

Your abuse is not my abuse and it is emotionally abusive to imply that it is. Your abuse is not due to the same physical cause that mine is.

Why? I am not a trans woman. I have a trans partner but I don't see how that means that my abuse does not have the same physical cause as yours?

The "women's" can look like a Barbie dream house and the "men's" can have urinals shaped like formula one cars.

:D