What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Erm.. You don't think that being a rapist, murdering paedophile is the problem regardless of how they look or what sex they are?

Of course, but according to your logic, as long as they make the effort, it's immaterial.

Essentially, this "As long as they're making an effort thing" is the appeal to female socialization, yes?

"Why can't you just be nice? They're making an effort."

So this week at work, when I was in the ladies locker room and toilets at work, and had a massive flooding incident that meant I had to change my trousers and have a colleague get me some big pads, I was in pain, tearful, light headed and exposed. If a male bodied individual had walked into that area, I would have undoubtedly felt 100% worse, and even more exposed. Even if it had been one of my very pleasant, kind and thoughtful male managers and colleagues.

But it wouldn't have been one of them, because, as pleasant, kind and thoughtful individuals, they would have understood that their presence would not have been making an effort, it would have been an added problem.

This is the kind of thing that goes on in women's spaces, not cutesy convo's about mascara brands.

The lurkers I actually mentioned with those who thought you debating consent was a pile of wank.

Sorry, what? Do you call that a sentence?

Yy floral

Im just horrified at the sharing lipstick one

Thats not hygienic surely

rejecting those who don't pass while ignoring those who do is hardly a principled position

They should all stay out of female spaces. Some have a better disguise though.

With = were
I rejoined the conversation ten seconds ago and even I can tell that

The Equality Act as it stands is not changing. Transgender people have to be (where proportionate and legitimate etc etc) treated as their preferred gender. Sex is a protected characteristic and the exemptions can be used to maintain sex separate services and spaces.

Some, including me, would like a presumption that sex exemptions should be invoked but that is not what the Act says. Neither does it say transgender rights supersede sex though. There has to be a balance.

Our institutions are inherently biased against women and will tend toward favouring transwomen. They are not undertaking equality impact assessments; they are not considering the needs of vulnerable women. They have to be made aware that they are failing to do due diligence,

My personal view is that anyone who tries to fit in, no matter how unsuccessfully, belongs in a space. It is effort, not success, which matters to me

Textbook example of entitlement, this.

Right, so is there are grading of effort? Does a transwoman who has had facial feminisation surgery get an A for effort, whilst another who hasn't bothered to shave gets a D?

What complete nonsense. It also betrays a completely reductive and facile way of looking at women; that we should be judged on how we look alone.

FOTTFSOF.

What about if I don't make an effort. Do I have to use the gents?

The whole effort thing comes from the Equality Act and the EHRC guidance.

There was a brief fragment of light earlier on.

Perception was mentioned. In some posts about the church of England and their EA exemptions.

Because perception and beliefs are, in essence, what the crux of the issue is.

What is really being asked for, is someone else's beliefs and self perceptions to override others' own beliefs and perceptions.

That's a big ask. And an even bigger ask based on trust, rather than fact. It's very hard to prove a belief.

pratchet

Yep

And they are usually smelly...

Dh said its to do with the flushing

Yes, Pratchet, if your womaning is substandard then we will revoke your privileges.

*Disclaimer: sex-based rights are not a privilege you can earn through extra effort if you aren't actually the relevant sex.

The guidance more or less sets out that there is a sliding scale for whether gender reassigned individuals should be treated as their preferred gender in every instance.

Plus apparently teenage boy wee gets rid of foxes

So that must count as well...

Pratchet, Can we go together?

I suppose that explains why so many get extensive feminization surgeries while keeping their penis and scrotum intact.

I have no idea what makes you think you have the authority to talk to Rufus like that, Rat. Personal attacks are forbidden here in FWR.

I'm not making much of an effort today, on account of it's been hot and I can't be arsed. Should I have to use the men's until I can be bothered to put on some lippy?

These constant appeals to female socialization aren't working. You'd think the people making them would have noticed that by now and changed strategies, but I suppose that, threats, and baroque theories of biology are all they have really. Which is why #nodebate was the initial plan.

Plus apparently teenage boy wee gets rid of foxes

??! Why would foxes have an aversion to the piss of teenage boys specifically? Seems like an odd evolutionary adaptation.

(Also seems OT, BUT then you realize that even bloody foxes can apparently tell male and female humans apart by smell and look, we're back on topic again.)

No

What about if I don't make an effort. Do I have to use the gents?

I haven't made an effort since I was about twenty. Gents ahoy!

Not liking the attempt to chivvy Rufus into line. You leave our reindeer alone!

Seriously though, dunno why anyone thinks that scolding other commenters like they're naughty children and mummy is very disappointed in them is going to accomplish anything other than making the person being scolded make obscene gestures at their screen.

I missed all the upset I think?

I apologise if I’m offending people. I know this is a very upsetting subject and that many women are particularly vulnerable, I had hoped that I was putting forwards our case.

Like it or not, the Equality Act requires institutions to balance rights. We are unlikely to be overturning that. It means we need to make our case, it actually helps if onlookers see that the other side is represented because it helps us to refine arguments that carry water.

We will not be the judge of this, we can only persuade and present evidence to support our arguments. We will not succeed if we take the same “no debate” stance.