What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

RatRolyPoly "We are both, after all, women. We should both have a say. "

Males who transition are never female ... so they should never have a say about what females believe is necessary for their safety, privacy, dignity and what females understand to be fairness for themselves.

Rat

I respect your opinion.

There are a lot of emotions flying around. Feelings do have weight here because feeling safe, respected etc is part of the problem for both transwomen and women.

You have managed to be dispassionate but it’s a hard task for people who genuinely feel oppressed to suppress some very strong emotional reactions. It spills out. It’s not an intellectual exercise.

But we are close to working out what the key issues are. We could really do with some of this going through the courts now to get it resolved one way or another.

' I also would expect all masculine-looking women to be kept from those spaces, including butch lesbians.'

Why is this lesbophobic shite being posted?

What about lesbian women who don't adopt feminine appearance who are women obv and who have ptsd? And who want away from males?
Like yunno the women protesting pride? What about them?

Is their punishment for not conforming to patriarchy that they can't access spaces to recover from patriarchy?

Why is this lesbophobic shite being posted?

Well yes, it’s a bit of a problem but I’m going to stick up for Snappity here whose heart is in the right place I think. She is recognising that women may be triggered by transwomen (because they are male) and has assumed that these same women would be triggered by masculine looking women, when evidently this is not the case. I don’t think she is being intentionally lesbophobic though.

Elletorro The courts should not be necessary ... the Equality Act 2010 is very clear about the Exceptions that protect all females. If it wasn't for Trans Activists using intimidation and fear tactics to terrorise organisations those Exceptions would be the default position. As it is, because of the intimidation and fear tactics used, organisations are fearful of using those Exceptions.

Government needs to reassure all organisations that those Exceptions are the default position and, where any organisation wants to deviate from that default position, they must provide a full Impact Assessment and justify why any such deviation is relevant.

I'm not going to pretend that a person who called the vagina of a woman who has had a hysterectomy a "blind canal" even though they were aware that it was triggering to at least one woman on the same thread, is being "accidentally" lesbophobic, sorry.

That’s really horrible Langcleg, I didn’t see that. I’m sure Snappiry wouldn’t use a term like that for a tranwoman’s surgically constructed vagina, would you Snappity?

Interphobia? Stop appropriating intersex. How many times do intersex people have to ask you? Why have you made up a word when they don't want you to exploit them this way? Why don't you leave them alone? Intersex is nothing to do with trans!

I don't respect Rat's opinion. It's not based on a sound premise.

Intention is irrelevant with that kind of speech.
I'm a lesbian. I'm not feminine.
I have a right to sex segregated spaces to recover from male abuse.

I don't think women like me should be told we don't deserve to recover unless we act straight and try to look feminine.

I don't want to see it defended on here.

Women all deserve to recover from abuse.
Non feminine women represent a good proportion of the power house that was the women's rights movement that created these services.

I can tell the difference between a "butch lesbian" (or indeed a "butch straight woman") and a transwoman at 20 paces. So fuck off the with idea that having a non-girly female in a sex segregated space is in any way the same as having someone who was born male in that space

There are a whole host of women who transgender advocates claim "transwomen" are like. Lesbians, Black women, women who have had hysterectomies, infertile women. All of this to either insist that "transwomen" are entitled to access to women, or to claim these females are not women and so should not be treated as women.
Once the men have taken all our words to describe themselves what do you suppose they will call us? What will they expect us to call ourselves? Far as I can tell the pejoratives they scream at us like bitch and whore and slut are all we will be left with.

That was for refuges only and only for women traumatised eg have PTSD triggered by anyone who looks masculine. The intention was that they have an inner space which reduced triggers while most women are in the outer space. I also would expect all masculine-looking women to be kept from those spaces, including butch lesbians. It is not about excluding trans women but all masculine looking women and any trans women who don't look masculine would not be excluded.

Snap you show your ignorance of women more every day. It's not worth engaging with your disgusting ideas. How dare you come here and try to tell women what women's refuges should look like. Women who are scared of men or want privacy from men simply don't get triggered by masculine women, you massive goon. A 2 year old child knows who's a man and who's a woman. Get stuffed.

Well yes, it’s a bit of a problem but I’m going to stick up for Snappity here whose heart is in the right place I think. She is recognising that women may be triggered by transwomen (because they are male) and has assumed that these same women would be triggered by masculine looking women, when evidently this is not the case. I don’t think she is being intentionally lesbophobic though.

I am not. I am saying that if it comes down to appearance (rather than say birth certificates) then it will depend on appearance not trans status and some people who are not trans will be excluded too.

That's wrong. It's totally wrong. I agree. But appearance is a very blunt instrument and people need to understand that some people who are not trans will get caught up in it.

Males who transition are never female ... so they should never have a say about what females believe is necessary for their safety, privacy, dignity and what females understand to be fairness for themselves.

You know I'm not a transwoman, right?

Not that I'm making anything of it, it just reads like you think I am. And I wouldn't want you making a point of something that wasn't the case. If that is indeed what you're doing.

I'm not going to pretend that a person who called the vagina of a woman who has had a hysterectomy a "blind canal" even though they were aware that it was triggering to at least one woman on the same thread, is being "accidentally" lesbophobic, sorry.

Then talk to my GP because that is his language. I have heard several doctors use it. The whole point is that menstruation provides a flow from top to bottom. Without that flow, the micro flora situation is different. It is not intended to be offensive it is talking about biology which is expressly allowed.

And as to triggering, the biggest trigger on MumsNet is the repeated claim that trans women are not women. That is the trigger which should be banned.

What is a woman?

You know I'm not a transwoman, right?

I am repeatedly wrongly taken for a trans woman too.

I can tell the difference between a "butch lesbian" (or indeed a "butch straight woman") and a transwoman at 20 paces. So fuck off the with idea that having a non-girly female in a sex segregated space is in any way the same as having someone who was born male in that space

You think you can. There is no evidence that this gender gaydar is 100% accurate and doesn't have both false positives and false negatives.

I have been in groups where someone has pointed at someone and said "Is that a man or a woman?" and the group rarely reaches consensus.

And to suggest that butch lesbians are in the same category as predatory men is extremely offensive

Just as it is offensive to suggest that trans women are in the same category as predatory men.

But the whole point is that these days the only thing to go on is appearance. Surgery with a top surgeon is very, very good and nobody other than a gynaecologist could tell. So all that is left is "looks masculine".

And as to triggering, the biggest trigger on MumsNet is the repeated claim that trans women are not women. That is the trigger which should be banned.

I can see how upsetting this is. Have you read the thread about how transexuality was discussed in 2002?

By attempting to live as a member of the opposite sex, they try to avoid internal conflict, which may otherwise prove to be too distressing

Drawing attention to this internal conflict by saying that transwomen are men would obviously be very distressing. However, it is the truth.

The recent legal victory risks reinforcing a false belief that it is possible to actually change a person's gender.

Even if you forget the impact on women, is going along with this false belief actually a kind thing to do?

I see no purpose in the guessing game about who is trans or not here, which is why the only distinction I tend to make in debate terms is TRA or GC. I'd only refer to a poster as trans if they have said they are.

I do think there are liars on the board, emphatically so. Tbh, that is their lookout, lies do tend to bite you in the arse eventually unless you keep an extensive spreadsheet to keep up the pretences. Which is why socks are often so bloody obvious.

But in reality, like most of the posters I admire here, my objection is those that persist in disregarding, dismissing, discounting and dissembling over honest spoken concerns about women's rights and boundaries, whatever their motivations and identities.

If you're an MRA who is enjoying trolling women, I have no respect for you. If you're a TRA who can't see past the end of their nose and insists that 'woman' is a concept too nebulous to clearly define, then, whether you're doing it because you don't really care to investigate further, or because you have a vested interest in getting your own way despite objections, or because you like feeling like you've scored an argument point and it doesn't really bother you anyway, then I respect your right to be here and make your case, but I afford your position contempt because I know far too many people in real life who are already disadvantaged by your arguments and influence, and this isn't even remotely hypothetical from my pov.

So the blind canal comment is related to period flow now?
I've not had a hysterectomy, but I've not had a period for over a year and I can assure you my micro floras are just fine thanks..
Don't think you will ever live that disgusting comment down snappiity,
Might be better to apologise rather than continuing with trying to justify it.

How many people on this tread have actually read the Equality Act 2010 from beginning to end? Church of England lawyers, more than any other group, got in place exceptions but they don't just allow the Church to discriminate against transsexual people, they allow the Church to discriminate against anyone the Church believes to be a trans person. It is the only effective way.

But it means that some people who are trans won't be spotted but also, inevitably, that some people who aren't trans can suffer discrimination and can do nothing.

Before people press for more exemptions or stricter control of same sex spaces I wish people would read the Equality Act and realise that people who aren't trans but who are perceived to be will be excluded too. Knowing you aren't trans won't be enough. If someone thinks you are, that might be all it takes. That's one of the reasons why I fight the gender critical agenda because it will affect non-feminine women too.