What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Anyway ‘passing’or not isn’t the point - tbh I find the idea of assessing a trans individual on how well they pass sort of offensive. Woman isnt a costume competition.

the point is that any bloke under self ID can access a space.

lang

I agree, at times the lack of empathy following a powerful post can be quite concerning

It does make for a more pleasant experience if posters sympathise even if they can't agree

The people who insist on parroting that 'transwomen are women' thing - they do know that the spectrum of 'trans' according to Stonewall includes men who like occasionally cross-dressing, right?

Yes, but I don't see people on Mumsnet fighting for rights and acceptance for most of that rainbow. Generally we are talking about trans women ie people who live as women but were assigned male at birth (and occasionally trans men).

And that 80% of the men who 'identify' as transwomen retain their male genitalia? The genitalia which form the major part of our objection to having their owners in women's spaces?

What is the source of that statistic for trans women and does it include those who are on a pathway towards surgery?

You will observe that as soon as any indulging (genuine or tactical) ceases, the aggression and entitlement will be more open.

Anyway ‘passing’or not isn’t the point - tbh I find the idea of assessing a trans individual on how well they pass sort of offensive. Woman isnt a costume competition.

Yes, passing privilege is offensive which is why I don't think how well someone passes should matter - and rejecting those who don't pass while ignoring those who do is hardly a principled position. My personal view is that anyone who tries to fit in, no matter how unsuccessfully, belongs in a space. It is effort, not success, which matters to me.

So for instance, a transvestite who goes into a cubicle, noisily lifts the seat and stands to piss for me is making no effort and does not belong there, no matter how they look. But a very masculine looking trans woman who comes in, sits to pee, and politely chats while washing her hands, does belong there.

in all conscience, I can't read the entire thread. I've read most of it.

When I see a butch woman, I see a woman who doesn't give a fuck about men or the male gaze.

Absolutely welcome, almost on that basis alone.

When I see a man presenting as a woman, I see a man presenting as a woman.

Unwelcome, to me, in female spaces.

Rat seems to thoroughly enjoy taking people down some kind of existential path in order to disappear up her own fundament in terms of the concept of consent.

Crack on. Whilst you are engaging people here in an intellectual discussion, there are 10 times the number of lurkers, thinking it's all just a pile of wank.

@Rufustheyawningreindeer

I absolutely lost it over over your 92 year old aunt and '...they can't be the same person, surely?'

Then again five minutes later on the other thread in AIBU where a poster did a long post about how one is coercively and violently assigned a sex, beginning Dear Mummy, and ending with mummy eye rolling and saying don't be a twat all your life, love.

I keep looking up at the football, pissing myself, with everyone going wtf.

datun

Thanks

That 'mummy' post was funny

Mumsnet makes me snurk...a lot!!

I find the women on here who are indulging you to be deeply offensive.

I assume this is aimed at me. I did not mean to cause you any offence and I am sorry.

I have real life friends who I am very close to, who are Followers of Genderism and believe that transwomen are women.

I love them very much, and it colours how I argue a point on here, because sometimes in my head I am talking to them. That’s why I try and find points of agreement, eg the fact that women will find transwomen triggering.

I minimised the offensive nature of what Snappity said because of this. I am sorry.

My personal view is that anyone who tries to fit in, no matter how unsuccessfully, belongs in a space. It is effort, not success, which matters to me.

On that we differ. No man belongs in a woman only space. It may hurt the individual’s feelings - at the same time the safety of women and children is paramount to me. I care about safety/privacy/dignity of women and children as a class.

The feelings of individuals, whether they’re well meaning or not, are irrelevant. How hard someone tries is irrelevant.

A woman is a woman - regardless of what she’s wearing. The idea that women should somehow be treating women who are butch looking as ‘other’ is not Ok with me. We are all women. It’s our biology, as a class, that unites us.

Jesus, WTAF is snappity on about. I could give a shiny shit about sitting/ standing/ how polite the chit chat is/ how fucking loudly the toilet seat is raised. Absolute bollocks. Snap if these are the issues you think concern women.. Oh sorry. You are a woman aren't you.

lemon

I dont know if that poster is referring to you but that was a very kind thing for you to say

I think a lot of us are guilty of thinking some posters cant possibly be real or honestly believe the stuff they come out with so we dont treat them seriously

(Or its just me...dunno)

My personal view is that anyone who tries to fit in, no matter how unsuccessfully, belongs in a space. It is effort, not success, which matters to me.

Completely illogical. And dangerous.

On that basis a multiple rapist, child murdering paedophile, is welcome, as long as he makes an effort.

Nonsense.

Crack on. Whilst you are engaging people here in an intellectual discussion, there are 10 times the number of lurkers, thinking it's all just a pile of wank.

Well you're lovely these days too aren't you. You must know the lurkers you speak to are not the only lurkers, right? Because I know that. I know it without a doubt. Aw, do you think yours are the only ones?

Aw, do you think yours are the only ones?

Mostly, yep.

Mostly, yep.

Oh, bless you.

The lurkers Datun is speaking to comprise 82% of the population.

My personal view is that anyone who tries to fit in, no matter how unsuccessfully, belongs in a space. It is effort, not success, which matters to me.

Well that's dangerous nonsense isn't it. Behave.

The lurkers Datun is speaking to comprise 82% of the population

Yep. Not insignificant.

My personal view is that anyone who tries to fit in, no matter how unsuccessfully, belongs in a space. It is effort, not success, which matters to me.

A white coat does not a doctor make.

Rufus, yes, I think that's true. Sometimes the level of jaw drop in response to certain posters and their posts can colour our reactions because it's hard to believe someone who claims to be thoughtful and compassionate can be so cruel and offensive. Sometimes I try and believe it's because they don't really understand the level of gittery they are displaying. And I really respect that lemon is valiantly trying to find common ground.

My personal view is that anyone who tries to fit in, no matter how unsuccessfully, belongs in a space. It is effort, not success, which matters to me.

This also implies come to me, there is some kind of rulebook about what women get up to in the ladies loo. A rulebook that certain men who identify as women would very much like to follow, for their own personal reason.

There really, really isn't. The borrowing each other's lipstick scenario and complementing one's hair do, hardly ever happens.

It's far more to do with biological functions. Many of which are unique to women's biology.

On that basis a multiple rapist, child murdering paedophile, is welcome, as long as he makes an effort.

Erm.. You don't think that being a rapist, murdering paedophile is the problem regardless of how they look or what sex they are?

The lurkers Datun is speaking to comprise 82% of the population.

Oh really? 82% of the population think that trans people are deluded, the GRA should be repealed and that vast numbers of transwomen are dangerous fetishists? Are you sure??

Absolutely floral

And i think that she thought she had it with snappity

So near and yet so far

Lol Rat. The lurkers I actually mentioned with those who thought you debating consent was a pile of wank.

I go as far to say that more than 82% of people think that.