What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

people who aren't trans but who are perceived to be will be excluded too.

Woman can tell the difference most of the time.

Snap, I am a butch lesbian. Why is it that you think I represent a danger to feminine looking women?
I find your posts deeply, deeply offensive. I find the women on here who are indulging you to be deeply offensive. I’d report your posts but I’d rather leave them up so that the world can read your vile disgusting words.
The man who raped me knew I was a woman. The men who have sexually assaulted me knew I was a woman. I am a woman, not some kind of half woman as you are suggesting.
Why are certain women on here tolerating this disgraceful shit? I am every inch the woman you are, and I’m not a bargaining chip to be traded.

people who aren't trans but who are perceived to be will be excluded too.

Be fairly easy to fix that as a misapprehension.

You want to ban us from saying transwomen are not women?
That's a biological fact.
If that biology is so triggering, there are plenty of places on the Internet that would be less triggering for you.
Some of us find male bodies triggering, that is why we want to ban male bodies from our spaces.
The difference is our triggers are based on fact based lived experience, not made up feelings about the meanings of words.

So let’s go back to your original idea Snappity. You said that women who have issues sharing with transwomen should be able to access segregated space. What shall we call this space?

hotrocker

Damn right. And

‘Butch lesbians’ and ‘masculine women’ are WOMEN. Woman isn’t a costume, or an act, it’s biology. Whether a woman is in high heels and a ball gown or a boiler suit with a buzzcut is irrelevant - she is a woman. There’s no distinction, or division. Woman = biology.

The idea that a woman ‘not womaning the way I think women should woman’ is really telling, because it denies biology and reduces women to a visual stimulus.

Fuck that. That’s one of things I’ve been railing against since I was old enough to refuse to wear a frock.

Hotrocker I agree and I'm sorry you are having to read this utter shit.
Snappiity does not have a good reputation around here.
We can all tell the difference between men and women. Its disingenuous bullshit to pretend we can't.

The people who insist on parroting that 'transwomen are women' thing - they do know that the spectrum of 'trans' according to Stonewall includes men who like occasionally cross-dressing, right?

And that 80% of the men who 'identify' as transwomen retain their male genitalia? The genitalia which form the major part of our objection to having their owners in women's spaces?

I have been in groups where someone has pointed at someone
and said "Is that a man or a woman?" and the group rarely reaches consensus.
Do you hear yourself?
And yet we women are the abusive ones.
Get to fuck dear.

This obsession with whether or not trans people "look" like women entirely misses the point. The moment that women's spaces are freely open to anyone who claims they're trans, it won't matter whether they look like a woman or entirely like a man: they can get in.

At the moment, whilst I'm willing to believe that a few transwomen who make a lot of effort to look like women do use women's toilets, in the main the whole spectrum of trans (ref. Stonewall - includes occasional cross-dressing men) does not, because they know they cannot without being challenged.

We can all tell the difference between men and women. Its disingenuous bullshit to pretend we can't.

Er, this thread is active on the Fem Chat board RIGHT NOW, and it rather seems to suggest that we can't.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3303233-Misgendering-How-do-biological-women-handle-it

On the thread rat has linked to

The a lot of the posts are talking aboit being called Mr in a letter

Guys in a restaurant and meeting

There are certainly aome posts talking about being taken for a man

AT FIRST GLANCE

So yeah

Disingenuous bullshit is right

There is always going to be a minuscule amount of people who really honestly and truly look like the opposite sex

But usually in real life and not a photo....nope

Yea the op in that thread uses some examples, one is as a child.
Second example is deliberately misgendering ie the person knows she's really a woman.
Third is out of rudeness as in addressing a mixed sex group as gentlemen, hardly personal more laziness I would say.
Next is face to face in service situations, so I will give you that one although other posters go on to talk about when people realise their mistake, ie it sometimes takes longer than a passing interaction.
Then I think was written correspondence, again hardly personal.
Lots of other posters on that thread talking about when they were kids or much younger. Kids are harder to tell of course.
Men and women not so much.

And caribau is right

As ive said a million times on here, no problem personally with transwomen whether they pass or not...but i do have a problem with the piss takers

I have been in groups where someone has pointed at someone
and said "Is that a man or a woman?" and the group rarely reaches consensus

Good god seriously?

Disingenuous bullshit is right

When the fuck did you get like this Rufus? Seriously, the way you speak to poster's has changed, and not for the better.

You and I both know there are posters on that thread that are genuinely mistaken for the opposite sex in person, and not at first glance. It's there in black and white. Your nasty little digs don't actually reflect what's there.

There is always going to be a minuscule amount of people who really honestly and truly look like the opposite sex

Er, yeah, so when trans people make up less than 1% of the population you don't have to be misgendering someone all that often do you. No-one's saying we don't get it right 99% of the time, but we can get it right 99% of the time and STILL get it wrong for every single trans person. Christ.

But usually in real life and not a photo....nope

Yeah, usually in real life we get it right. Duh. Every time though? Nope.

I would like to clarify for Rat that on the misgendering thread, I shared that I had been mistaken for a trans man, not a biological man.

What on earth are you on about

I was agreeing with the poster thats its disingenuous bullshit to say that you cant tell the difference between men and women

i even made sure that it was in a separate post so it didn't apoear to be referring to anything you said

I find your posts deeply, deeply offensive. I find the women on here who are indulging you to be deeply offensive.

In fairness, I think the aim is to tease out contradictions in the arguments presented. I don't think the intent is to actually indulge the poster, rather to make them feel indulged and thus reveal those contradictions.

That said, I agree with you. If a poster has a history of making the most vile and extreme lesbophobic and misogynistic posts and has distressed, triggered and hurt some of the women on FWR to the extent that they have made personal disclosures to that effect on the board itself - and continued to be treated with contempt by that poster - as has happened here, I don't think any interaction at all with them is sisterly to those women. The feelings of lesbians and women with reproductive trauma on this board should be our priority.

I'm saying we can't definitely tell the difference between men and women 100% of the time in day to day situations; I assumed that made me a "disingenuous bullshitter" Rufus, it got my back up. Didn't mean to snap.

And yes Spartacus, I remember that you were unique on that thread for having been mistaken for a trans man.

Last thing i will be saying to you

We can all tell the difference between men and women. Its disingenuous bullshit to pretend we can't.

I was referring to that

I'm still not following you Rufus, but sorry for snapping at you if you weren't indeed calling me a disingenuous bullshitter. I can't be arsed with that sort of thing these days; call me touchy.

Er, this thread is active on the Fem Chat board RIGHT NOW, and it rather seems to suggest that we can't.

I don’t think that’s what the thread is finding actually.

I generally get misgendered before people meet me because ‘I thought you were a man.’ Since I have a name which is not ambiguous this can only be because I use ‘Dr.’

That’s just plain old sexism.

When the fuck did you get like this Rufus?

Ew, just ew