Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

I've written this somewhere else but Rat's sophistry deserves it too.

*Male and female describe reproductive role.

Whatever your brain says, it doesn't change your reproductive role.

Sure, dysphoria is real. Dysphoria doesn't change your reproductive role.

Dysphoria is not identity. It is dysphoria. Sex dysphoria is unhappiness with reproductive role. It doesn't change your reproductive role. If certain males think they are females because of certain personality traits they possess, it simply means that those personality traits have been incorrectly described as female, when in reality they exist in male brains too.*

Reproductive role is written into every cell in your body and affects physical abilities, capacity and performance. This is why males should not compete in female sports.

Nope, but as a disabled athlete you could compete as able-bodied. My point is that sport has no interest in maintaining an arbitrary binary is it does not help achieve its aims. There is no real further comparison here. But you can concede my point if you like.

Huh? The point is that people shouldn’t just be able to enter the physically and socially disadvantaged category (disabled or female) just because they are slower or weaker versions of the other category (able-bodied or male).

There is no coherence at all to the suggestion that males should compete in women's sports. All Rat has is 'stop being unkind'. Of course, by that Rat means 'unkind to mal

....es, not unkind to females.

Huh?

As Pratchet astutely observed, Rat's posts are pure sophistry to confuse and deflect and reverse. Transactivist 101.

RatRolyPoly
Did you ever have time to read the interview with Delia Johnston that I linked to upthread? I think it's really worth reading.

The evolution of implementation of sporting policies that are inclusive for people who are transgender is worth exploring.

For example, Boston marathon allowed competitors to self id this year. The interviewer linked tries to establish the basis for this:

Presumably once Boston sets a precedent?

ABC News article
"Several other major marathons said they have no official policies but are taking a similar approach to Boston. Organizers of the Chicago, New York City, London and Los Angeles marathons all said they honor the gender that runners submit during sign-ups.
"We want to be inclusive and sensitive to all of our participants," said Carey Pinkowski, Chicago Marathon executive race director. "At this point, we don't feel that we need to require legal or medical records or anything along those lines."
But there's still a wrinkle: Many races, including Boston, New York and Chicago, require runners to show IDs with the same names and genders as their application forms, which can be an obstacle for trans athletes who haven't legally changed their personal information. Race officials said they haven't fielded complaints but will monitor their policies to make sure they're inclusive.
In elite competition, debate has mostly focused on transgender women, who typically require surgery or medication to lower their testosterone levels. Olympic officials issued new rules in 2016 saying trans women can compete if their testosterone levels stay beneath a certain limit, and many professional races now follow similar rules."
In response to the March blog post, some commenters said transgender women have an unfair physical advantage and shouldn't bump other women from qualifying.

Stevie Romer, a transgender woman from Woodstock, Illinois, says she registered for Boston as a woman because that's what she is. Although she hasn't done anything to lower her testosterone levels, Romer legally changed her gender, grew her hair out and started living openly as a woman more than a year ago.

"To be able to experience it as me was really, really important," she said. "I've been a runner since as long as I can remember. I love running, but I just happen to be transgender."

abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/boston-marathons-trans-women-compete-women-54320495

SwimEngland's policy of gender selfid, was withdrawn subject to reconsideration after being challenged by the #ManFriday campaign.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3176098-I-am-about-to-ID-as-a-man
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3199430-I-am-about-to-self-ID-as-a-man-the-update
www.feministcurrent.com/2018/04/09/interview-uk-women-self-identifying-men-challenge-proposed-changes-gra-part-manfriday/

“In sport, men, women, transpeople, the disabled, young, old; they're all equally valued

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Fuck me thats funny

Boston was designed to be the precedent that said 'males don't always win' #weseeyou

Here's an article about TIMs running in the Boston Marathon. If you can be bothered to read to the end, you'll see that Stevie Romer only just made the women's qualifying time. Romer has taken no hormones, just grown his hair and started wearing make up.

www.runnersworld.com/news/a19742832/boston-marathon-policies-transgender-runners/

He wouldn't have qualified if he had entered as a man. But he entered as a woman and took a place from one. This is why this stuff matters.

Absolutely.

"Some people have surgery, some take hormones, and others, like Romer, transition socially but with no medical intervention. “None of those ways are more valid ways of being transgender than any other ways,” Mosier said."

You will be unsurprised to learn that Mosier is a TIM

Colour me shocked.

Oh and Mosier worked to change IOC rules

Colour me astounded.

The use of precedent in implementing transgender policies seems key, both in sport and elsewhere... in most interviews I have heard by those advocating for self-id in changes for the GRA (for example) the list of countries who have already done so seems always referenced...

But we don't in other areas of legislation use this as justification.

By way of example,
(from Wikipedia)
The only countries with permissive gun legislation are: Albania, Austria, Chad, Republic of Congo, Honduras, Micronesia, Namibia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Senegal, Tanzania, the United States, Yemen and Zambia, although several other countries like Canada and the Czech Republic, despite theoretically being restrictive, are shall-issue countries.

Yet despite Donald Trump's recent suggestion, we don't have permissive gun laws in the UK.

NB I am illustrating a principle, not comparing those advocating for for transgender rights to those who support the NRA!

Rowan: re - use of precedent - absolutely.

Transactivists have worked under the radar for years so successfully that most universities, to take one example, have gender self ID policies. These were pushed during the period when most people thought 'trans' meant transexual, and when numbers were thought to be vanishingl

..lay small. So it was seen as a positive gesture rather than a policy that would actually have any real life impact. Of course there was never any publicity: it wasn't widely advertised that any man could now get access to female spaces with the magic words 'I am a woman'.

What that means, is precedent. Think of it when you hear some transactivist say: 'we've had self ID across hundreds of organisations for years and never had a problem'. This was the purpose of that work.

I know Ereshkigal - none of this is surprising. Except to those people who continue to insist that self ID will not impact women.

And yes, precedent is hugely important.

This is a slight derail but probably not worth starting another thread about; it occurred to me yesterday that this whole 'running as me' and 'beaten up for being trans' relies wholly on stereotypes because strangers will only know someone is trans because they're 'dressed as a woman'.

So if being trans is not about stereotypes then surely nobody else would even know someone was trans? It's not because of the way they feel, it's because they're 'dressed as a woman'. I hope that makes sense to someone.

'beaten up for being trans'

I don't believe this is done by women / feminists.

Despite the current claims made against Linda Bellos
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3237264-Linda-Bellos-arrested-Title-edited-by-MNHQ-to-make-clear-that-she-was-in-fact-interviewed-under-caution

Sorry I meant by men, because of the claims that TIMs face violence from strangers simply for being trans. It seemed linked to 'running as me' when that TIM hadn't had any surgery and when running gear really isn't that different for men and women.

Yes again women should put aside their own meagre protections against violent and harassing males to "protect" validate other males.

Women are meant to be human shields for gender-nonconfirming males. I get the impression they expected us to like the idea.

It seems so, Ereshkigal, rather tragically so.