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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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CadyHeron · 03/05/2018 19:08

Bewilderness- they're not doing it incorrectly at parkrun at all. Sorry to disappoint you, but they're really not.

SardineReturns · 03/05/2018 19:09

Sorry that was fro Stella.

This obfuscation is not on. And it's the whole problem - people wanting to control language.

On MN it is there written though so saying oh I never said that doesnt' work very well.

Whatisoccuring · 03/05/2018 19:14

I just wanted to reiterate that no-one said anything about badge

Yes yes there was a reference to marking trans woman as 'assisted'. That is transphobic. You are proposing to publicly identify trans women. It could be compared to the identifying badge that a far right regime insisted on in 1940

SardineReturns · 03/05/2018 19:14

If the principle is that TW are women and should be included in stats for women then it is a point of principle. Either they should be or not. For this, for competiiton, for crime stats, for pay stats, for diversity measures, for death rates and causes, and everything.

The principle of whether it is OK to include TW in with women does not change according to the event. If TW are women then they need to be treated as and included as women in ALL respects. And this is what TRAs are pushing for.

On top of this, we will need new words for the group of people with cunts, it would be useful to have one for grown up cunt people and child cunt people, in order to be able to report on stuff like the rubbish tips pakistan thread the other day.

SardineReturns · 03/05/2018 19:15

Are we allowed any words to cover grown up cunt people and young cunt people?

Does anyone know what they are?

JustGettingStarted · 03/05/2018 19:18

The person who introduced the idea of marking the run as assisted was one of the two trans posters. I think Lucy. They said that they would do it if they believed they had a significant advantage.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/05/2018 19:19

Yes yes there was a reference to marking trans woman as 'assisted'. That is transphobic. You are proposing to publicly identify trans women.

Erm, no. That would be marking "transwoman" as "transwoman"

It could be compared to the identifying badge that a far right regime insisted on in 1940

It could be if you were deliberately and maliciously making untrue assertions.

Whatisoccuring · 03/05/2018 19:21

"transwoman" as "transwoman"

Forcing a transwoman out is transphobic though. Isn't it?

IJustNeedAUserName · 03/05/2018 19:23

And we are strictly talking about marking the result as “assisted” - because that’s a category that already exists at parkrun and takes that result outside the ranking that parkrun itself does - rather than an actual badge!!!

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:23

Well, naming womens genitals is straying into transphobia big time. I would suggest; only a man can become a TW, a biological woman can't, so how about female, none trans, none male, hole attached to bits and bobs pregnant people need?

I'm sure someone will find something transphobic in that word salad.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/05/2018 19:26

Forcing a transwoman out is transphobic though. Isn't it?

Nobody is forcing a transwoman out Hmm There have been numerous suggestions made, which do not involve trans-identifying males being banned from Parkrun

Whatisoccuring · 03/05/2018 19:26

You're being silly now. That might be to hide your transphobia.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/05/2018 19:28

You're being silly now. That might be to hide your transphobia

I'm sorry, I genuinely have no idea what you are talking about - I must have missed a post somewhere. Could you rephrase, or point me to what you are talking about?

Whatisoccuring · 03/05/2018 19:28

trans-identifying males

Calling women trans-identifying males is definitely transphobic.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:29

Whatisoccuring Was that little pearl of wisdom aimed at me? If so, I was replying to SardineReturns with a heavy dose of sarcasm that I am still allowed to do.

CadyHeron · 03/05/2018 19:31

Telling them they're "doing it wrong", accusing of narcissm, to play fair, you're not one of us.... nope, nobody's making them feel not welcome/ they should be banned if "not doing it right" at all...Hmm
Anyone can do it how they like.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/05/2018 19:31

Calling women trans-identifying males is definitely transphobic

Now I'm really confused Confused Where has anyone said that?

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:33

Anyone can do it how they like. And I can say I don't like!

CadyHeron · 03/05/2018 19:33

Occurring - yes, that male comment slipped in stood out to me as well

Baroquehavoc · 03/05/2018 19:34

I think we are back to the:

On top of this, we will need new words for the group of people with cunts, it would be useful to have one for grown up cunt people and child cunt people, in order to be able to report on stuff like the rubbish tips pakistan thread the other day.

thebewilderness · 03/05/2018 19:34

Reality has a well known transphobic bias.

Newsofas · 03/05/2018 19:35

Whatisoccuring - I really not clear what you are trying to say. Who is being transphobic here or are you playing word bingo and seeing how many times you can get the word transphobic in this thread?

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:35

TW ARE TIM if they have not had surgery. What is so bloody contentious about saying it? They identify as trans women but are men. I'm not playing the semantics game, when a person has a penis they're male.

Newsofas · 03/05/2018 19:40

Spontaneousgiventine. I agree. The law clearly states that if surgery has taken place then that person can identify as the gender of their choice. These people are protected by the sex equality act. This has been the cAse for years. It works as sex is also protected. Self identifying is not protected.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:42

It's beyond ridiculous when you can't call a person what they are because some bloody hand wringer thinks it's 'phobic'. I'll say what I believe to be biological science. I will NOT play into games and delusion. End off.