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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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OnTheList · 03/05/2018 19:45

The law clearly states that if surgery has taken place then that person can identify as the gender of their choice.

Actually, surgery is not a requirement for a GRC

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/05/2018 19:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Baroquehavoc · 03/05/2018 19:46

The law clearly states that if surgery has taken place then that person can identify as the gender of their choice

Having surgery is not required to obtain a GRC.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:46

OnTheList No-one mentioned a GRC. We are talking about how people self identify. To get a GRC you need to have self identified for at least two years RLE.

Whatisoccuring · 03/05/2018 19:50

are you playing word bingo and seeing how many times you can get the word transphobic in this thread?

No just highlighting where it is happening in a friendly conversational style !

OnTheList · 03/05/2018 19:52

And actually, even if trans-identified male has all the surgery going, they will still be male.

Indeed.

No-one mentioned a GRC. We are talking about how people self identify. To get a GRC you need to have self identified for at least two years RLE.

Yes?

But

The law clearly states that if surgery has taken place then that person can identify as the gender of their choice

Which law would this be, that states if surgery has taken place then someone can identify as a different 'gender'? Confused

OnTheList · 03/05/2018 19:52

Maybe I am missing something.

As I usually am when not being able to make sense of a point Blush

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:55

OnTheList "The law clearly states that if surgery has taken place then that person can identify as the gender of their choice"

Part right, once surgery has taken place of course people identify as the gender of choice. The thing is, to get surgery you must live two years RLE as the gender of choice.

Changing gender does NOT change sex.

Baroquehavoc · 03/05/2018 19:57

That's my understanding of the conversation, OnTheList

Also, 'self id' or 'living as a women' doesn't really mean anything legally, does it?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/05/2018 19:58

No just highlighting where it is happening in a friendly conversational style

But you haven't highlighted anything. You make up a statement that has not been made, and then you say it was a transphobic statement.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 19:59

Also, 'self id' or 'living as a women' doesn't really mean anything legally, does it?

Legally no. Trans people can do a deed pole and change their name, this will allow all official documents etc to be changed. The old 'dead name' documents are then sealed.

spontaneousgiventime · 03/05/2018 20:00
  • Deed poll
FloraFox · 03/05/2018 20:25

The law also allows sports bodies to not treat people with GRCs as their acquired gender for the purpose of sporting events.

IdentifiesAsMiddleAged · 03/05/2018 21:40

Whatis

Again, no mention of a fecking badge.

Nor of writing on someone's forehead, wearing a hat or anything else you might want to make up that someone said

Cripes

thebewilderness · 03/05/2018 22:29

As I understand it telling your family,using the women's toilet, and putting on a dress, is considered to be proof that you are living as a women.

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 00:13

As I understand it telling your family,using the women's toilet, and putting on a dress, is considered to be proof that you are living as a women.

Sounds about right, women aren't worth much are they?

ShotsFired · 04/05/2018 10:03

I just wanted to reiterate that no-one said anything about badge

@Whatisoccuring Yes yes there was a reference to marking trans woman as 'assisted'. That is transphobic. You are proposing to publicly identify trans women. It could be compared to the identifying badge that a far right regime insisted on in 1940

Putting aside your shiny Godwin Award for a minute, you do know that "assisted" is already an actual thing in parkrun? Surely you didn't just glibly assume that people made it up for the purposes of this thread without even checking?

Blind people with companions run as assisted
People running with their dogs (canicross) are assisted
People with biological/physical advantages not normally found in their peer group can run assisted.

It's not some kind of "weirdo klaxon"

M0RVEN · 04/05/2018 11:42

I have a question for those posters who think that’s it’s OK for TIM to register and run at parkrun as female/ women :

Is it morally right / fair to others for me ( a 48yo woman ) to register and run at parkrun as a 78 year old woman ?

After all, it’s not against parkrun rules.
I personally believe that I’m not advantaged over other 78 year olds.
I have proof that I’m now slower than I was 5 years ago, before I decided to transition.
I identify as a 78 year old, wear their clothes and make up.
I have the hobbies of a 78 year old.
It would mean the world to me to see VW75-80 beside my name.
Parkrun is supposed to be inclusive.

To be clear, I’m not asking if it’s possible, because I know it is. Anyone can register online.

I’m asking if it’s morally acceptable. Does it show respect for other runners ? Is it in the spirit of parkrun ?

richmarr · 04/05/2018 15:15

@florafox

As I've already clarified, I'm not proposing any such change. Please actually read this stuff rather than just skimming, otherwise there's little to no hope of doing anything but shouting across each other.

See my previous comment:

"And I'm not proposing anything, other than that these people not be made to feel unwelcome at social events like ParkRun."

This is false, the reports you have posted do not make the latter claim.

Do they make that exact claim, about that exact situation? No. But that's a disingenuous bar to set when you've held your own evidence to no such bar... oh wait... you haven't provided any.

The claims they do make are close enough and numerous enough that (considering the potentially fatal repurcussions and absolute lack of contrary evidence) the only reasonable choice is to start from that assumption.

Yes women have long been expected to prioritise the feelings of men over their ability to tell the truth and to expect privacy, dignity, safety and the opportunity to participate in public life. Meet the new boss...

Addressing trans women as "men" is transphobic. And trying to blame that transphobia on the historical actions of men as a whole is as logically invalid as it is morally dubious.

OrchidInTheSun · 04/05/2018 15:57

Transwomen are a subset of men, not of women. If they were a subset of women, natal women could become transwomen and we cannot. Therefore they are a subset of men.

I can draw you a Venn diagram if you like.

OvaHere · 04/05/2018 16:06

Addressing trans women as "men" is transphobic. And trying to blame that transphobia on the historical actions of men as a whole is as logically invalid as it is morally dubious.

Male socialisation and misogyny runs deep in many men and transwomen are no different in that regard. Just because they announce a gender change doesn't that we women can't see the behaviour patterns that still exist and be on the receiving end of it.

Go read the transwidows thread on here and listen to some of the abusive behaviour they have suffered at the hands of partners who became trans after marriage.

What is logically invalid is suggesting that people can change sex and that women have to accept it because men say we should. The morally dubious thing at play here is the gaslighting and coercive treatment of women in the mess that is identity politics.

Scabbersley · 04/05/2018 16:12

Addressing transwomen as men isn't very polite. But that's as far as it goes. It's not actual violence.

Tbh trans people would help themselves if they had a slight sense of humour about it.

R0wantrees · 04/05/2018 16:41

I haven't read the whole thread but in the last couple of months, I've seen similar ones.

The focus whether on professional or amateur sports usually turns to the rights / discrimination against the trans women who wish to compete and discussion often becomes about specific individuals.

Inclusion policies in sport start from this point and are often written by or with people who are transgender- which is logical.
Who would deny the importance of all people taking part in sport especially groups who have experienced exclusion?

The issue though is that in supporting one group's inclusion, there seems (from what I have read) rarely a consideration of the possible impact on women and girls. How might we hear from those women and girls who have become excluded?

If the ideology behind the policy is that 'trans women are women' & 'trans girls are girls' how can there be?

When Liz Truss MP supported Mumsnet's allowing of free speech, The Daily Mail quoted,
"Last night Delia Johnston, the former head of a charity campaigning for trans sportspeople to be allowed to compete in their chosen gender, condemned Ms Truss. Ms Johnston said: ‘She is giving kudos to Mumsnet who are particularly vicious on this particular front. Truss could be investigated for backing a group that is effectively advocating violence against the transgender community. She may be a terf in disguise.’"

Delia Johnston talked very positively in an article about how she had been involved in improving inclusion policies in sports a couple of years ago:
metro.co.uk/2015/10/21/transgender-woman-on-her-desperate-struggle-with-her-new-identity-and-how-she-was-accepted-by-the-fa-but-not-her-daughter-5376352/

She raised the question, "I play a lot of badminton. When I started transitioning, I was getting involved in my local gym. The NHS demand you keep yourself fit and healthy [if you are transitioning]. But how the hell can you do that if a gym is against you? It’s a Catch 22."
I believe that when #ManFriday demonstrated the potential impact on women & girls of SwimEngland's policy, Jane Fae raised a similar point about how important it was for trans women to swim.

However it is also true that some women and girls may be impacted by these policies, especially if what it is to be a woman or girl is determined by self-id whether that is in losing positions in weightlifting teams, places to run in the Boston Marathon, attending women-only swimming sessions or because they are not able to share changing rooms etc for reasons which should not be blanketly dismissed as 'bigotry'.

Delia Johnson also comments in the article,
"Another hot topic that surrounds transgender people in sport is the issue of gender categorisation – something which Delia feels strongly about: At what point is it fair for a man who has transitioned into woman to play for the women’s team, and vice versa? According to their 2003 rules the IOC [International Olympic Committee] says you need to be on two years of medical hormones before you can play on the team of your assigned gender – something Delia believes is the wrong approach. ‘I think those rules are stupid,’ she says. ‘The requirements are extremely demanding and not all individuals can achieve what is required in time. By then, they may have passed their peak in terms of performance.’ Delia argues that physically, you change greatly, quickly, once you start taking female hormones. ‘When I play badminton now, my mind says I can do that shot but my body says, “in your dreams”.

Her focus is on the physical impact of transition, not a comparison with those born female and this is significant.

The need to encourage increased participation of girls and women in sport is widely accepted. www.sportengland.org/research/understanding-audiences/sport-and-women/
www.sportengland.org/our-work/women/this-girl-can/

We need to be able to support the inclusion of people who are transgender and also women and girls.

To discuss this is not transphobic.

spontaneousgiventime · 04/05/2018 16:48

The problem here is, yes, all should be allowed to participate in sports, I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. However, changing rooms (as an example) would mean (as an example) Muslim women would not be allowed to go into them if there are TIM's allowed in there. This is completely removing an entire segment of biological women's rights to keep fit and participate in sport. Do we disregard our Muslim sisters to allow TIM's into changing rooms? I say - Hell NO!

0dette · 05/05/2018 05:14

This straw man is put up time and time again.

Women say “ we are happy for trans identifying women to participate in sport. We just don’t want people with penises in women’s changing rooms and we don’t want to be forced to compete against natal men “.

Trans activists say “ oh so you don’t want us to do sport / you want us dead/ you say we don’t exist / you are hateful bigots “.

And round and round it goes.

I’ve never yet seen any TRA actually address these two specific concerns. We just get endless pleas to be nice because natal men’s feelings are more important than natal women’s.

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