Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

Sorry - that looks like Auntie Cady... I meant Auntie AND Cady.....

Rat - and that post could have been part of the debate on the original thread, could it not?

Perfectly valid for you to bring that to the discussion...

.unless you're saying being trans is a made up thing in people's minds which they say they are simply because they want to trick everyone into conferring onto them some advantage?

No, you've created a false dichotomy. It's possible to believe that they genuinely believe that they are women, but are breaking the social contract of fair play.

Myse1f - again, a post that could have formed part of that discussion.....

I am disappointed that HQ pilled the thread, I think that anyone born male should not be competing in women’s categories and i think we need to have these conversations!

The erasure of women in sport is just as insidious at grassroots level as it is in the professional arena, grassroots sport is important, it can help women make friendships, develop confidence, and keep fit and well physically and mentally, and I think allowing trans identified males to compete as a women undermines women’s sport as a whole.

Agree, myse1f.

NOT A RACE! NO ISSUE!

Yes.In a competitive race, shouldn't be allowed. Park Run, no race, no issue.

We have this amazing forum to really debate the issues and then it gets put at risk by those who are clearly transphobic. We are walking a fine line here and Justine is backing us.
This too. I like the fact you can have a proper debate on here, from both sides. The fact that there was accusations of cheating when no-ones doing anything of the sort, as well as blatant transphobia (which to be fair to MN, the thread went soon after.)
If the thread's going to look like swiss cheese as it'd be that full of holes with deletions, I can see why they'd take the whole thing down.

Just a general question on the issue. Is a woman allowed to take artificial testosterone which would bring her up to agreed upper testosterone limit for the women's competitions currently in place? Not talking about Park Run here obvs!

I have reported my OP to MN. Either this thread will also be deleted or we will get a post from HQ.

No Rufus, I started writing it ages ago when the talk had turned to cheating but then I got distracted! Poor form really.

Dammit, done it again!

thats fair enough rat

I just couldn't see what it was in reference to but I appreciate that it was mainly concerning the 'cheating' accusations on the other thread

Hi all,

We're not trying to silence anyone - we spend a huge amount of time doing our best to ensure these conversations can continue. We don't always get everything right, it's true; it's an incredibly complicated subject. We're sorry you felt we made an error here. We thought that particular thread wasn't really in the spirit. We do try not to zap whole threads, as you know - and we don't do it lightly.

Thanks for the feedback - we do listen, and we'll always take it on board.

@Sophie

Thank you for posting. This was one of the few threads, certainly the only one I can think of, that described a real life experience of the impact of GRA in sport. Whilst the intention may not have been to silence debate, you have erased that debate - an important debate that rarely happens here.

Impact of GRA in sport, whether these be 'fun runs' or the Olympics is a perfectly valid topic to discuss, as is whether 'self identification' should be considered to be de facto cheating, even if it is not de jure cheating.

To those who dismiss this is 'just a fin run', please consider that elite female athletes of the future may well start off by participating in such events as young girls. Their experiences matter just as every female's experience of participating matters.

Very poor show, HQ.

I thought the title read badly.

Sometimes the threads just take a tone that is unpleasant.

It could probably be ok to start a new discussion on exactly the same topic.

I must say that I'm normally squarely on the side of MNHQ but in this case I think they made a mistake for the reasons laid out by TheUterati

I've said this before but:

Park Run isn't a race, but it does have 'gender position' ranking, and many people who do it will care about their ranking. So this scenario is relevant.

I’ve always thought “not really in the spirit” was a rubbish reason to delete a thread and don’t agree with this thread being deleted.

I do though recognise MNHQ work hard to keep most of the trans threads going in the face of a lot of pressure.

The thread was a great example of how transwomen's choices aren't made in a vacuum. Every time they tick that 'F' box, take that door marked 'Women', it's likely that they're pushing out, taking the place of a woman.

It's naive and disingenuous to pretend this isn't the case.

I'm not dismissing it as a fun run. I am saying it is a mass participation, non-competitive event with a distinct ethos of inclusivity.

Other events - lots of them - are available to people who want the competition rules to apply.

And perhaps a thread about one of those events, ideally with a definitive example (rather than assumption/suspicion) might provide scope for a discussion of what is happening to competitive sport.

"Park Run isn't a race, but it does have 'gender position' ranking, and many people who do it will care about their ranking. So this scenario is relevant"

Perhaps the change to lobby for is the cessation of publication of results in their current form. Just send the individual emails, with time and %age (according to registration details as provided).

@Auntie - my comment wasn't aimed at your posts here, but I remember some posters were dismissive of the OP on the grounds that Park Run is a fun run so no big deal.

It's naive and disingenuous to pretend this isn't the case.

Quite.