Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

I don't know that the old social bargain between women and transsexuals can be restored at this point. It's not women who broke it, it's TRAs. If at some point we could get the "worship my ladypenis" nutcases out of the picture then maybe some sort of new arrangement could eventually be made, but as long as people like the Degenderettes are around threatening women and trying to bully us into submission we're going to be at an impasse.

I note the irony of saying this in that if I was to find myself in Thailand again I'd be fine with the old system specifically when it comes to dealing with khathoey, who're the equivalent of our old school transsexuals. I still don't think they're women, but I don't think they're a threat to me either, so we can find ways to live together amicably. Because for the most part they don't hate women and are willing to compromise.

natluc To me, recovering enough of myself from a relationship I had planned on investing my future in to, to be able to try again is a struggle. I know I’m only 28 but being alone is a genuine fear as a consequence of transitioning. Urgh. I feel like that violin is playing sorry.

I don't hear any violins, natluc. I can hear your anxiety though and I wish you every happiness.

"If I don't actively tell the world who I am, then people will keep telling me I'm someone I'm not."

Surely you know that this is not a common problem.

Could that be because you are telling them you are A, while they can see with their own eyes that you are B? That is, the whole world can see that you are not what you claim to be.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, far from it, but I think all this talk of "I am who I am" etc can benefit from a bit of objective input.

I think the fundamental problem is that just because someone looks at men, the group, and thinks "that's not me, I don't want to be part of this" that doesn't mean that they're part of group woman. If TIMs asserted themselves as a separate group that's not quite like other men but also not in any way part of group woman then they'd get a lot less pushback from women in general and feminists in particular.

You can't identify into a group of people who mostly don't recognize you as being part of their group. It just doesn't work. It would be like me deciding to identify into my husband's ethnic group (which is not mine) on the basis of, well, I've spent a lot of time around people in that group and I kind of like his family better than most of mine and I'm culturally competent, as sociologists would say. Except that the problem is that everyone can see that I'm not part of that group and so my trying to identify into it would make the people who're actually in that group uncomfortable and irritated. And would likely make them accept me as a friend/coworker/associate of whatever kind less than if I'd just accept that no matter how well we get along we are in fact not part of the same ethnic or cultural group.

Acknowledging difference is a good thing. Sometimes it's a sign of respect.

I think the fundamental problem is that just because someone looks at men, the group, and thinks "that's not me, I don't want to be part of this" that doesn't mean that they're part of group woman.

Acknowledging difference is a good thing. Sometimes it's a sign of respect.

YY.

Pink News exclusive:
"In 2017, the former Equalities Minister, Justine Greening, announced plans to review the 2004 law, which allows transgender people to gain recognition by changing their legal documents – but the process has since been delayed multiple times.

This has been partly due to pressure from the right-wing press.

Multiple departures from the ministerial position have also contributed to the confusion.

Mordaunt is now the third Equalities Minister since the announcement of this review — following the departure in April of Amber Rudd — it is currently unclear when the review will begin and how much of a priority it will be.

Reports last year stated that the review would begin in spring 2018, but there has been no further information about the review’s time frame.

In the open letter, the groups have highlighted the “humiliating” process the current law requires to change the gender on legal documents, as well as pointing out that transgender people face discrimination and abuse that remains unchallenged while the government delays the review.

“The longer this delay goes on, the longer abusive invective is allowed to continue unchallenged by a government who rightly pride themselves on robustly speaking up for its minority citizens,” the letter states....." continues
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/05/07/exclusive-the-government-is-enabling-abuse-by-not-reforming-gender-recognition-groups-tell-new-minister/

link to current thread:www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242812--Amnesty-International-Mermaids-and-Stonewall-have-signed-an-open-letter-to-Penny-Mordaunt-stating-the-importance-of-reforming-the-Gender-Recognition-Act

the groups have highlighted the “humiliating” process the current law requires to change the gender on legal documents

Is it humiliating? (NatLuc, do you have experience of this?) I'm thinking that most governmental processes are maddening, slow and intrusive (disability rights come very much to mind), but we grind our teeth and battle through them.

I've got to be honest - it seems a lot less demeaning and humiliating than the process to obtain ESA or PIP. It's not as though it involves an interrogation by the panel - applicants don't even have to attend.

DS won't do the forms to claim PIP, LangCleg, as he finds they send him into a bitter spiral of depression. The bloody forms for his school statement used to have that effect on me too. All that concentrating on what was wrong instead of everything he could do well.

Derail over. I would have thought, naively, that a process emphasizing the ways in which someone considers themselves to fit with/identify as the opposite sex would be affirming, if anything, rather than depressing?

Another small derail: NatLuc, you say you'd like children and you're attracted to women - were you offered the option of freezing sperm? This is probably too personal a question but it's prompted by some posts in another thread where it seems that future fertility is not always fully discussed.

Woman's Place UK

This is a campaign formed specifically to ensure women’s voices are heard in the debate around proposals to change the Gender Recognition Act (2004).

We have 5 fair and reasonable demands to ensure that this happens.

We have produced some resources to help you be part of the campaign.

We are organising public meetings all over the UK.

We are talking to as many people as we can.

We believe that respectful dialogue is vital if we are to achieve a progressive law which upholds the rights of everyone.

The five demands:

1. Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard.
2. The principle of women-only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended.
3. A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act which allow or single sex services or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job (such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice.
4. Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces.
5. Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

videos of speeches given at meetings are available on the website:
womansplaceuk.org

DS won't do the forms to claim PIP, LangCleg, as he finds they send him into a bitter spiral of depression. The bloody forms for his school statement used to have that effect on me too. All that concentrating on what was wrong instead of everything he could do well.

I can imagine. Huge, huge sympathies and solidarity with your DS. From food bank volunteering, I know very well that it's not just personal humiliation either - it can send people into penury. I think the ESA and PIP processes amount to state-sanctioned abuse of ill and disabled people. And there are a lot of people caught up in it. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands.

Another reason I bridle at the me me me, only my oppression counts attitude taken by extremist transactivists.

@MargeH - Thank you for understanding. Losing someone who was my rock for 3 years but also the only reason I wasn't transitioning (because I wanted to fight it off and stay who I was for her - didn't work, unfortunately) has honestly been the only 'price' I have had to pay that I was unable to be okay with.

@Lancelottie - It is okay, happy to answer. Have you seen the film 'Hook'? Wendy, when she has that recognition meal from the orphans she helped.. Even when I was young I knew I would like to do something like that and give a second chance to those who were cast out. Not for recognition, it was just such an emotive scene for me growing up, that she had helped all those people. Personally, I think this planet has enough mouths to feed and I would prefer to help those already here. So I waived any options to have sperm frozen, it was brought up at my first GIC consultation and I straight up said it wasn't something I wanted to do so maybe I am not the best person to talk about the specifics of availability.

LangCleg A friend of mine had a stroke, she was too young to claim Attendance Allowance so claimed PIP. She had to apply which is an ordeal on it's own, then have a medical. She was denied PIP so had to to appeal (I can't remember what the actual appeal things is called). That was also refused so she had to go to a tribunal. This is a woman who can barely stand, do little for herself and is now a shadow of the woman she was. It's heartbreaking to see. I can't even phone her now as she can't speak clearly any more. She did win in the end, it took around a year I think and she is now on antidepressants as well as all her other problems. It's shameful.

Glad it was brought up at an early stage, NatLuc - I was quite shocked by the other thread.

Adoption is no walk in the park, according to various friends, but I hope things pan out for you in future.

As the FA was mentioned on previous page, it may be of interest to read the FA response to Mayday4Women's leaflets distributed at last week's women's cup final:
www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11364342/fa-condemns-anti-transgender-flyers-outside-wembley-at-womens-fa-cup-final
There is a website due to launch soon mayday4women.com

The FA have never given a fuck about women and girls so is this a surprise?

Women's football:
"Although its first golden age occurred in the United Kingdom in the early 1920s, when one match achieved over 50,000 spectators, The Football Association initiated a ban in 1921 that disallowed women's football games from the grounds used by its member clubs. The ban stayed in effect until July 1971"

Long time ago but we all know that football is "for men" don't we?

In this case, they want the men's team to be men and then the other team to be the non men ie also men really but not the A-men. Women should be making the tea and sandwiches for 1/2 time.