Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

Well didn't NatLuc spell this out below? That's our role, it would seem, as "natal cis women". And apparently couldn't have predicted the offence it caused!

Women are meant to be human shields for gender-nonconfirming males. I get the impression they expected us to like the idea.

^ This - 100% this.

Women are meant to be human shields for gender-nonconfirming males

The call for 'cis allies' was discussed here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228481-Cis-allies-being-asked-to-provide-protection

If women are beign asked to be "human shields" against GC women then realistically GC women don't go aroud attacking people so they're probably fairly safe!

Although less so from their own side - at speakers corner one of the TRAs is on film fronting up to a woman who is on the same side... Which is interesting to say the least.

If they are planning on winding up groups of men and then getting the women to take the consequences then that's not the same but I don't think they are going after men, on the internet or in real life, they are going after women.

The idea behind it - that women are stronger and better at fighting and generally less vulnerable all round and should therefore be in the front line in front of the TRAs plus of course more expendable - is pretty gross though.

Wasn't this the basis for Emma Healey's intervention?

SardineReturns Quite! By blindly accepting the GRA update it means welcoming violence into our own ranks by TRA. I dread the women's crime statistics as the violent crime is going to shoot up and little will be added to by biological women.

It seems worth a mention of the petition to Parliament

"The government proposes to amend the law to allow people to self-identify as men or women, and to stop allowing organisations in sensitive situations to exclude people of the opposite birth sex. We call for women to be consulted on how to protect women and girls' rights, safety, privacy and dignity.

More details
We call for:

• Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of proposed changes and for women's voices to be heard.

• The government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces, data-gathering, and monitoring of sex-based discrimination.

• The principle of single-sex spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended."

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

WPUK
have 5 demands:
Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard.
The principle of women-only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended.
A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act which allow or single sex services or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job (such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice.
Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces.
Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.
womansplaceuk.org

Yay for wpuk 💪🏻💪🏻

No that’s not true - my dd plays for girls team in a girls league

There is no such thing under FA rules. My dd plays for a team with "ladies" in the title but theoretically boys can trial and join. Her team is exclusively female, but they play in a mixed league. This is under FA rules. Grassroots teams may have their own rules? FA changed the rules on this a year or so ago. Mixed up to 18.

There's reference to the FA in the interview, I linked to earlier:

metro.co.uk/2015/10/21/transgender-woman-on-her-desperate-struggle-with-her-new-identity-and-how-she-was-accepted-by-the-fa-but-not-her-daughter-5376352/

"On the ‘trans-friendly’ FA As Delia says, some bodies deserve credit where it’s due. Namely, the English Football Association, or The FA. Delia worked for the organisation despite, she says, having been told they were ‘homophobic’. Undeterred, she went in and examined the structure of the organisation from a transgender perspective, and found The FA to be the most inclusive of all sports organisations she’d come across – and in fact, the most instrumental in getting transsexuals involved in football. ‘A female to male person wants to do what any other male does – which may include playing football,’ she says. ‘The FA has been the most pro-active and reactive in their inclusion of trans people within football. ‘There are, incredibly, many new transsexuals participating in various levels of football this year.’ Delia believes that if we keep this conversation going, even more trans athletes can step out in the field much sooner. ‘Looking back over the last five and a half years, who would have thought that I would achieve so much after going through so much, that I would help so many, and most importantly, that I would have so much fun?’ she says."

Yes very easy for transgirls to play. Not so sure how trans boys would get on though.

I am not surprised that a transgender advocate found a homophobic organization to be transgender friendly.
Transitioning away the Gays and Lesbians is one of the goals of transgender advocacy.

A transitioned individual with drastically lowered testosterone may not be able to compete in any meaningful way, and may not be safe if included in the men's competition. (I say "may" because no doubt it depends on the sport, the hormone levels and other factors as well perhaps.)

This is tantamount to exclusion. It's certainly exclusion from participating in the same meaningful way as everybody else.

By the same reckoning then, allowing male people to compete against female ones is tantamount to exclusion as it female people may (will..realistically) not be able to compete in any meaningful way and may not be safe, if against a male person. Afterall, isn't this the main (if not the only?) reason for sex segregation in sport in the first place? That women would never/very very rarely win against men due to..biology?

Did Nat ever answer my question from earlier?

Every single adult male human I know is bigger than me. I've only met a handful who weren't, and in those cases they were maybe a centimeter or two shorter (and probably still stronger). Expecting me to be a human shield for adult male humans is absurd. Male children I'm protective of as I am of all children, but male adults?

Are you saying the FA is homophobic?! Plenty of happy lesbians in women's football!

Are you saying the FA is homophobic?!

No, I'm not. I am not in a position to know.
I am suggesting that transgender advocates rarely recognize homophobia when they see it or practice it.

@AngryAttackKittens - Sorry no I haven’t yet, it’s been a pretty crazy week so I’ve not have the chance. I will though.

I am not surprised that a transgender advocate found a homophobic organization to be transgender friendly.
Transitioning away the Gays and Lesbians is one of the goals of transgender advocacy.

Well, same-sex attraction has already been condemned as transphobic

And eighty percent of gender nonconforming children who aren't put on blockers become reconciled to their bodies during puberty & grow up gay or lesbian.

But when children are put on blockers, their bodies & brains miss out on the development that could have led them to desist, & instead they almost always move on to cross-sex hormones. Thus growing into adults with the genitals of children, and if they do realise at that point that they've made the wrong choice, it's too late to go back .

But trans organisations like Mermaids and Stonewall say that anything other than enthusiastic affirmation of these children as trans is transphobic.

If anyone wants to tweet this post, go ahead. The further this information is spread the better.

Good evening everyone,

I hope you’ve all enjoyed the bank holiday sunshine?

Below is my answer to the question @AngryAttackKitten asked me a while ago.

It is a wall of text so I am sorry if it derails the thread again, which is not my intention or annoys anyone.

Question: So if you're going to stick around, Nat, I would like to know what the woman's role is that you believe that trans women are living. What does that role consist of? What are its challenges and its rewards? When you look at the "cis" women around you do they seem to you to be living that same role?

Answer: so I mentioned in one of my comments about ‘living and breathing the role of a woman’. What I meant by this is that to transition and attain a GRC (which ultimately, with GRS, is my intention), I must jump through a lot of hoops. Which are pretty gender stereotyped. And if I’m found lacking then I can be denied. For example:

Oh.. your new name is Jo... well that’s not a very feminine name.. sounds to the review panel that you’re trying to straddle the line.

Obviously that doesn’t apply to me as Lucy is a traditionally feminine name but I I’m trying to say that in order to attain a GRC we have to be deemed stereotypically ‘feminine ENOUGH’ to be granted one. So I mean role in that respect.

However, what role do I live that I feel makes me a woman? Well as many others on the thread have stated.. there isn’t one role or one set of character traits that makes one a woman.. woman aren’t uniform. So quite simply.. I am myself. Since transitioning I have simply stopped forcing the social expectations of being male to be my traits. And it just happens to be that being myself aligns more closely to a great many women. Not trying to say that is why I see myself as a woman, that is a whole other answer to a different question.

I see plenty of challenges in my future, many of them that women have faced, such as the expectations of being attractive, (superficial, I know) this one plays a particularly heavy tune in my mind as I feel as a trans person I will only be accepted if I pass or am attractive. Which is awful. Another is the fear that I’ll never find love again because hetero women are not interested in dating me and neither are most lesbian women (not a criticism on either group) I briefly touched on the fact that I lost my partner in order to transition. To me, recovering enough of myself from a relationship I had planned on investing my future in to, to be able to try again is a struggle. I know I’m only 28 but being alone is a genuine fear as a consequence of transitioning. Urgh. I feel like that violin is playing sorry.

As for rewards? Well for me, the reward is being true to myself. Whether you see me as a trans woman, woman (as a collective term), both or a ‘feminine male’ in a dress, being able to be myself is the reward of ‘living as a woman’.

When I look at other natal women.. in my own age group (25-30) I would say that yes.. I am living that same ‘role’ which is simply living. I mean obviously some have had babies which I can’t do, but I do see myself adopting and fostering once I am more financially settled so irrelevant I guess.

I know that answer is... vague? But I believe that when most trans people speak of ‘living in role’ it is mostly to do with the gender stereotypes we’re expected to adopt in order to satisfy others for access to healthcare or recognition or ‘to be seen to be trying hard enough’.

Also I know the example of appearance is superficial but right now that is a huge concern. But like all people.. struggles and aims and aspirations change over time. It just happens that is my personal ‘challenge’ to overcome at the moment which is to stop caring about how people look at me.

Lucy.

order to attain a GRC we have to be deemed stereotypically ‘feminine ENOUGH’ to be granted one.

I don't think thats the correct interpretation. I think they want someone to demonstrate that they are committed, not someone who can fall back on being a man in certain situations. For example, Jo could be short for Joseph when applying for a job, but short for Josephine at other times.

I do agree with you with regards to clothes, though. Wearing a suit and tie, and sitting with legs apart, wouldn't convince anyone of their desired to be a women. Whereas I could wear and act identically and still be seen as a women. So I do think there is a certain pressure to perform to stereotypes to obtain to GRC.

Coming out to family, feminine clothing, and using the women's loo, for two years are the indicators that are often repeated, both by those who decide and those who have gone through the process.

It would seem that you are legally compelled to behave stereotypically by law, then.

I suppose it all comes back to the old way - when TIM will do their best to fit in and 'behave' like women, the law and women, to a certain extent, treat them like women.

Now TIM want to be visible and want to talk about their experiences and their bodies, and talk about how different they are to women, which is great. I think it's fabulous now TIM are living openly, without the fear of outing themselves. I'm glad TIM are not pressured into stereotypes. But why should women now continue to treat TIM as women when TIM are happy to talk about being male and their differences experiences? Why can TIM talk about their biology and their needs and wants, but women can't?