Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

Odette you're wrong about sport; forcing transitioning/transitioned individuals may well be excluding them from participating at all.

That is because sport has the fundamental aim to include people in a way that is safe and competitive (i.e. no forgone conclusion).

A transitioned individual with drastically lowered testosterone may not be able to compete in any meaningful way, and may not be safe if included in the men's competition. (I say "may" because no doubt it depends on the sport, the hormone levels and other factors as well perhaps.)

This is tantamount to exclusion. It's certainly exclusion from participating in the same meaningful way as everybody else.

It is for this reason that the different sports have the power to set criteria for participation, the aim of which is to include transpeople in such a way that is safest for them and other competitors, and gives rise to meaningful competition. They set these criteria (usually specific testosterone levels for a period of time - at least a year) with the best scientific evidence in mind and with consideration for their own sport.

They do it to allow the safest, fairest participation of everyone, and if they deem it best to include transwomen in the women's category to achieve those aims then I for one support them.

A transitioned individual with drastically lowered testosterone may not be able to compete in any meaningful way, and may not be safe if included in the men's competition. (I say "may" because no doubt it depends on the sport, the hormone levels and other factors as well perhaps.)

I think it’s been said before on this thread but again; weaker male == female.

jellyfrizz sport doesn't care.

Sport cares about inclusivity, and safe and meaningful competition.

Doesn't give a fuck about sticking rigidly to chromosome-based categories.

Sorry, but it doesn't.

Doesn't give a fuck about sticking rigidly to chromosome-based categories

Doesn't give a fuck about women. Fixed it for you.

I can draw you a Venn diagram if you like.

I have a few already drawn up.

How do I know that Transwoman are not women?

It took over 100 women being raped for anyone to do anything about John Warboys - however just one man to complain about being misgendered to get a taxi driver sacked.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238991-Charlotte-takes-a-taxi

'Chromosome based categories' are alive and kicking and don't ever think otherwise.

Terf didn't you realise Katerina Johnson Thomson runs the 200m with her penchant for nail varnish and handbags, not her legs.

Doesn't give a fuck about sticking rigidly to chromosome-based categories.

Why does it call two pretty major categories ‘male’ and ‘female’ then?

Doesn't give a fuck about sticking rigidly to chromosome-based categories

Sorry rat but that's not true.

I can't think of a sport off hand that doesn't segregate apart from equestrian (and I've done a few in my time)

While we are being lovely and inclusive, what does this mean for young women coming up in sport?

All three of mine are sporty - athletics, football, martial arts. Winning matters to them. They want to win more than anything (I know, how unfeminine)

So what happens when a transgirl joins? What happens when my daughter is sparring with a 15year old trans girl? Or when my other daughter faces them on the football field? The women’s game is different to the men’s game for physiological reasons.

Can you possibly see it from their perspective? Do they have to accept that the trans girl is simply a better version of them?

Perhaps you could explain to my dd why she has to do netball in PE rather than football. I'm saying it's because she's a member of the class that produces eggs.

Tinycitrus: they have to accept that their future in sport has been destroyed. Perhaps they could go into hairdressing.

(the football thing is a red herring - mixed football up to age 18 now - trans girls would be welcome as boys are already playing girls)

Doesn't give a fuck about women.

Yeah, sorry, sport sets it's own agenda. It doesn't follow yours.

In sport, men, women, transpeople, the disabled, young, old; they're all equally valued.

Sport only gives the same fucks about women as it does about anybody else.

No more. No less.

Why does it call two pretty major categories ‘male’ and ‘female’ then?

Oh, you mean men's and women's? Yeah, that's because when you want to split sport into categories to ensure safety and fairness, that's the broad stroke. But sports have assessed the situation and decided that to best achieve their aims, that binary need not be religiously adhered to. They have the capacity for flexibility you see.

It's somewhat different, but we do also have two categories, one for able bodies, one for those with disabilities. Not everyone in the able-bodied category is not disabled. They're just suitably disabled to not be considered able-bodied. So there are disabled athletes in the able-bodied category; the binary is not strictly maintained.

But sports have assessed the situation and decided that to best achieve their aims, that binary need not be religiously adhered to. They have the capacity for flexibility you see.

They have not decided this at all. Most sports bodies are agonising over it.

Sorry rat but that's not true.

Everything I've said is true Scabbers. Sports which segregate do so to ensure safe and meaningful competition for all participants.

In equestrian they have decided that remaining mixed does not in any way compromise the safe or competitive nature of competing for any participant.

They have not decided this at all. Most sports bodies are agonising over it.

As well they should be; it's not an easy task. But they have decided, in that for now they have a decision, and in future they may change their mind. That's that flexibility I was talking about again.

So there are disabled athletes in the able-bodied category; the binary is not strictly maintained.

Yes but there are not able-bodied people in the disabled category (the more physically & socially disadvantaged one).

As an able-bodied person I could not enter the disabled category just because I have an innate preference for cake which makes me fatter and slower than other able-bodied people my age and sex.

they have to accept that their future in sport has been destroyed

Such hyperbole would be hilarious if it wasn't actually unnecessarily scaring women.

I'd love to keep chatting but I have to go and thrash a load of my fellow sportspeople in a tournament. Wish me luck!

As an able-bodied person I could not enter the disabled category just because I have an innate preference for cake

Nope, but as a disabled athlete you could compete as able-bodied. My point is that sport has no interest in maintaining an arbitrary binary is it does not help achieve its aims. There is no real further comparison here. But you can concede my point if you like.

“In sport, men, women, transpeople, the disabled, young, old; they're all equally valued.”

Nope.
Men are valued more.

Such hyperbole would be hilarious if it wasn't actually unnecessarily scaring women

In what way will their future in sport not be destroyed? You mean if they're one of the lucky ones who will win silver and bronze (so long as there's only one trans-identifying male in their category)

(the football thing is a red herring - mixed football up to age 18 now - trans girls would be welcome as boys are already playing girls)

No that’s not true - my dd plays for girls team in a girls league

“Sport” is not a person, Rat.