Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

[SuitedandBooted]

Would anyone like to try and put some comments on this story - I don't seem to be allowed!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

I can't believe it but I have joined bloody dm to post comments.

I tried to post one and then joined and I don't know if it has my comment in a queue to be moderated. Will redo it later if it's not there.

It strikes me - and it makes me sick to say this - that if we keep clicking on dm headlines about this issue, and encouraging other women to - perhaps dm will publish more articles so we can keep putting our view across.

So thanks suited for drawing my attention to it.

Those berths look really nice!

Wouldn't bother me to share with a trans woman.

The number of comments from thick blokes saying "why aren't there men-only carriages?' is annoying.

That1950sMum
You OK with this transwoman? They'll be out in the community soon:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5549333/My-daughters-killer-not-released-shows-remorse-father-says.html

Wouldn't bother me to share with a trans woman.

That's nice. Can you understand why some women wouldn't want to share with a trans woman?

There's a second story at the end of that article:
Corbyn ally urges: 'Thump a feminist'
On an internet blog titled ‘Is it ever justified to thump Terfs?’ she said: ‘Considering Terfs want to exterminate all trans women from the planet any violence directed at Terfs by trans women or trans allies is very much a means of self-defence.'
Why is stuff like this published without question? When has anyone said they want to exterminate anyone? Anyone who didn't understand the issues might read that and think feminists were a bunch of genocidal loons.

Wouldn't bother me to share with a trans woman.

Ah! You are right. Women - shut up. Thatmum has spoken

I’m lucky never to have been raped or seriously sexually assaulted. So personally I wouldn’t necessarily be triggered by sharing a confined and intimate space with a genuine transwoman.

But I have enough empathy and human compassion to understand how many many women might be triggered and/or extremely uncomfortable or distressed or panicked by being required to share confined intimate space with a male-bodied person.

It doesn’t take much imagination to see why it’s important to have safe sexual-segregated spaces.

Maybe if men fixed their violence problem and stoped participating in a culture of hatred and abuse and exploitation of women, we wouldn’t need to keep them out of our spaces.

I can see the issues with this and the concerns people have.

What practical solution would you ask ScotRail to propose?

I don't know how you could identify a 'genuine' trans woman but being trans does not make you any more or less likely to commit crime than non trans who are the same sex

Wow. Some nastiness I hadn't expected. I wasn't trying to wind anyone up. I'll leave this thread.

No but being a violent man, putting on a dress, and using that as a way to access women only spaces does.

*What practical solution would you ask ScotRain to propose?
*
When making a booking a person should be asked whether they wish to share with a person of the same sex or if they have no preference.

I have been on the Caledonian Sleeper. It is poky beyond poky in the berths. It's basically bunkbeds with a bit more than shoulder width standing room alongside. I was with OH and we went first class which basically means we got a double berth (lower single bunk) each and the connecting door open (like in the pic) - that was still cramped.

There is nowhere to hide, nowhere to go (apart from the toilets which were down the corridor). I don't recall hearing any noise coming through from the adjoining berth throughout the night or even before we slept/after we woke up.

I would not feel safe being in one of those little berths with a male bodied stranger and I certainly wouldn't sleep well knowing that the door was locked with us behind it.

I don't know how you could identify a 'genuine' trans woman but being trans does not make you any more or less likely to commit crime than non trans who are the same sex ,

Being Trans does not make you more likely to commit crime, but it does give you easy access to women - and considering men as a sex are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime, it is not unreasonable for women to want spaces without men.

Self ID will allow any man to access women-only spaces. I as a women, do not want to share a space with any man with "lady feelings", and that goes for Eddie Izzard too!

Please dont leave That1950sMum.

But I would like you to answer the question about whether, even if you are happy to share with a transwoman, you can understand why other women might not want to?

That1950sMum

Not nastiness, concerned women, worried about constant attacks on our basic rights.

This leaflet explains the problems with Self- ID

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

What practical solution would you ask ScotRail to propose?
I don't think there is an easy solution. As soon as the UK allowed people to change their legal sex, and people started to be accused of bigotry simply for pointing out that someone who claimed to be a woman didn't appear to be one, it was inevitable that we would reach this point.

I think worth linking again to the petition to:
Consult with women on proposals to enshrine 'gender identity' in law

"The government proposes to amend the law to allow people to self-identify as men or women, and to stop allowing organisations in sensitive situations to exclude people of the opposite birth sex. We call for women to be consulted on how to protect women and girls' rights, safety, privacy and dignity."
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

This leaflet explains the problems with Self- ID

Self ID isn't law at the moment. Is there anything to stop trans people doing this at the moment?

If a trans person is going to use this service, they are presented with 2 choices if they want to go on the sleeper service.

Neither seem suitable for a trans person under going transition and ticking the alternate option can make the other people in them feel uncomfortable.

If they are providing a service, they can't be seen to be discriminating if they provide a service for male and female passengers that puts their customers in potential danger - the idea of sharing a small cabin with complete stranger makes me feel very vulnerable. I can see why someone would also feel vulnerable sharing with a trans person.

I don't think that a 3rd space would be provided by ScotRail - and I don't know who would use it.

I think that them moving to individual spaces is much better.

I was the person who started this one (name change) and I actually e-mailed twice. Both times I had the same response. Their website says sex; the books no engine asks for gender; e-mails say gender.

The Twitter responses by the sleeper and Rupert Soames are interesting. They just want us to shut up.

From the other side as it were what about young transmen who tick male. Will they feel happy sharing with any man? But then they wouldn’t feel right sharing with a woman either. It really does open up a huge problem really.
If you had a ‘3rd’ space then really you’d need two 3rd spaces. One for trans men and one for trans women.

Of course it could be said that the obvious solution then would be to separate people by if they have a penis or a vagina rather than if they are wearing a skirt or trousers.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3210014-Our-customers-wont-do-this-because-they-arent-DECEITFUL

Thread started in AIBU - come and join us on an awareness raising mission!

Of course it could be said that the obvious solution then would be to separate people by if they have a penis or a vagina rather than if they are wearing a skirt or trousers

This person has a vagina.

As far as I can make out when they introduce new rolling stock in October it will be a choice of solo occupancy or double bedded cabins and the cabins will be en suite (which will be a big improvement)

However, Transport Scotland said its consultation had shown sharing was “outdated”, with only around four people per train taking the option

Its spokesperson said: “Only a small number of passengers are prepared to use ‘share with a stranger’.”

On the upside, has anyone noticed the other article on that page?

"Sophia Botha, a transsexual man who identifies as a woman"

Are the DM now calling "transwomen" "men who identify as women"? If so, that's great.