Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

[SuitedandBooted]

Would anyone like to try and put some comments on this story - I don't seem to be allowed!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

And that is another problem again Lass.
The person in that image would present as male until you see inside their pants.
So shall we split everything as women with vaginas, men with penises women with penises and men with vaginas.
What will the pictures on the door look like?

I wouldn’t like to share with any stranger to be fair.

Maryz
Did you read that article? I mentioned it earlier in the thread. Quote from Sophia Botha: Considering Terfs want to exterminate all trans women from the planet any violence directed at Terfs by trans women or trans allies is very much a means of self-defence.'

Is it right that someone can say something like that and the newspaper prints it without comment? Is that not incitement to violence against feminists? And when has any feminist said anything about exterminating transwomen?

Sorry OldCrone, I missed your posts.

Exactly, it's unbelievable. There is no evidence that feminists want to "exterminate" transpeople, so directing violence at anyone is just bonkers.

I can't find a link to the article by itself, though, it seems to be sort of a side issue which is strange

Single person cubicles does sound like the best, if more expensive, solution.

We can't assume that all transwomen are like the totally reasonable transwomen who post so eloquently here. That isn't their fault, it is the fault of the shouty, aggressive TRAs. They are turning women like me into the Feminazi's they accuse us of being. I can't help that. It is a fear based response, fight or flight, based on the perfectly logical fear that one of those TRAs will (again) commit the violence they so often shout, tweet and post about.

Sadly though, I suspect that this will just be a very good stick with which to beat us, as there is no way of explaining what we mean without sounding a tad hysterical (don't you just love that word?).

In India when you book trains, you are asked your sex M or F not what you identify as. And generally try to put you in seats/ berths with the same sex, knowing full well that protection is needed for women and girls. Often men will exchange their seat as they recognise this problem exists . Just a sensible precaution.

The comments from most men on the DM page show exactly why women need our own spaces/ compartment/ toilets etc. Most have read where the article states there are men only compartment....

There is a discussion on this subject over in AIBU - come and join in

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3210014-Our-customers-wont-do-this-because-they-arent-DECEITFUL

Practical solution? To offer single accommodation like they for first class sleeper passengers at no further cost for people who are concerned at sharing a cabin due to self id or who are from a protected category. Goodbye business case.

I use the sleeper a couple of times a year. I can now afford to pay for a cabin alone as I'm usually visiting my dad for the weekend. As a student I twice shared a cabin though. They are very small though and age 18 sharing one with a stranger who was obviously male would have horrified and frightened me. Sharing rooms with strangers should always be same sex.

I have to say the assumption of good faith by transgender people seems to be a big sticking point, and until recently was quietly accepted. Same premise used by Swim England, under review. Girlguides, under review. Now sleeper trains, who knows. In saying that, what if a trans person genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with a man, a strange man at that? Demand their own berth, or hope another trans woman is on the same journey?

This is beyond a fucking joke. Having to share a berth on a sleeper is grim enough without thinking you might be in a locked compartment with a strange man.

Exactly, it's unbelievable. There is no evidence that feminists want to "exterminate" transpeople, so directing violence at anyone is just bonkers.

If you were very stupid, or malevolent, or both, you could take the statement "since gender isn't real and there is no such thing as a ladybrain or a lady soul in a man's body, nobody is actually transgender" and wilfully misinterpret it as meaning "trans people shouldn't exist and should be killed".

I don't know how you could identify a 'genuine' trans woman but being trans does not make you any more or less likely to commit crime than non trans who are the same sex

I think that argument held up fairly well until we found out that half the males who identify as women who are currently incarcerated are there for sex crimes. So, yanno, maybe the perps are different in the UK, eh?

Are there any other mental illnesses that insist they have a "right to exist"? Because that is the argument they are making. That their identity delusions be treated with affirmation, and not the way all other delusional disorders are treated.

what if a trans person genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with a man, a strange man at that? Demand their own berth, or hope another trans woman is on the same journey?

Yes, I think this would be difficult for any trans person who didn't want to go through an awkward discussion with the person sharing his/her berth. Given that trans people are a small part of the population, the fairest thing might be to let any trans person have a single compartment (at the standard, not first class price) if they are uncomfortable sharing with someone of their biological sex. Yes, a few people might try it on, to blag a private compartment, but at least no one's safety or dignity would be at risk.

I'm totally opposed to women having to share with men, however they identify, but it's also important to find a way for trans people to use the service. Rupert Soames' suggestion of women having to tell the guard if they're unhappy sharing with a TW would be awful for everyone - the woman, the guard and the TW.

I have to say the assumption of good faith by transgender people seems to be a big sticking point, and until recently was quietly accepted.

Yes. Self ID is a game changer, and no few transwomen on MN have explained it affects them as much as women.

Of course a transwoman probably would prefer not to share with a male, and shouldn't have to. It's equally not the responsibility of women to surrender boundaries to make everyone else's problem go away. The obvious solution is the current legal situation unchanged which gives everyone leeway for case by case, common sense, and what works in the situation at hand, or if anyone can self ID no debate then there will need to be men's, women's and gender neutral facilities provided. Or an end to sharing as an option.

Given that trans people are a small part of the population, the fairest thing might be to let any trans person have a single compartment (at the standard, not first class price) if they are uncomfortable sharing with someone of their biological sex.

Privacy and dignity for women costs extra but men who identify as women should only pay the standard price in the name of fairness, of course.

"what if a trans person genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with a man, a strange man at that?"

I find in all these cases its best to use clear language and the answer usually becomes immediately obvious. Transwomen are men, so

"What if a man genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with another man?" Then he can buy a single berth just like women who feel uncomfortable sharing with other women.

As for a woman with a masculinized body, if she want to share with other women she simply needs to disclose to her bunk mate that she is a biological female who has had masculinizing surgery. As female she is entitled to use the sex segregated space. She should not have the option to use a male only space.

I believe from reading the article there were also carriages for people without a preference for sharing with the same sex. That would be another good solution for trans people who are travelling.

If you have seen my other posts on MN, you will know that I am highly GC. However I'm thinking of considerate trans people like Miranda. They are likely to find that both men and women are uncomfortable if they try to share the intimate setting of a sleeping compartment with them. What should they do? This applies to trans men as much as trans women- some TM do 'pass', so women will be scared of sharing with them, but it's unsafe for the TM to share with a man.

It seems a lot better for trans people to get the slight advantage of a single compartment, than for everyone to be uncomfortable and potentially at risk. We won't win arguments about this if we can't come up with a workable solution. Scot Rail are never going to introduce a policy that forces trans people to pay more by only travelling First Class - it would breach the EA and probably the HRA.

I'm interested in keeping women safe, not in getting worked up because a trans person might have a bit more space than me. If anyone else can come up with an alternative solution that doesn't break the law, be my guest.

And I'll choose my own language, thanks. Let's leave the policing of women's speech to the TRAs.

Oh well in that case, fine. I'm just going to say I am trans and get my own berth then. Why would I bother saving up for a first class ticket to achieve the same aim? Seriously? Why would anyone, if you can get it for free? (I assume they are not going to request you drop your knickers at the train door to prove it, so...)

This is all aside the fact the CS is routinely fully booked anyway, so where they're going to magic up extra compartments is beyond me, but not my problem.

And notwithstanding the biggest elephant of all elephants in the room, which is the need for validation by these vocal trans groups and predators we are worried about. (i.e. not the Mirandas of this world)

They don't want trans facilities. They don't want segregation. They don't want their own berths. They want to go in with the women to prove how extra-womanly they are. In the case of the former, we can suck their lady dicks if we don't like it; and in the latter, well they can get whatever they came for, but its ok because there's an alarm?

If you were very stupid, or malevolent, or both, you could take the statement "since gender isn't real and there is no such thing as a ladybrain or a lady soul in a man's body, nobody is actually transgender" and wilfully misinterpret it as meaning "trans people shouldn't exist and should be killed".

That's word for word exactly what some transactivists do. Remember that many very clearly have psychological issues. I don't accept that these would magically disappear if they suddenly got everything they demanded.

What if a man genuinely feels uncomfortable sharing with another man?" Then he can buy a single berth just like women who feel uncomfortable sharing with other women.

Agree. Single sex spaces should be respected.

I believe from reading the article there were also carriages for people without a preference for sharing with the same sex. That would be another good solution for trans people who are travelling.

And yes, that's the ideal solution.

Article about this in today's Times. Mentions MN