Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

[SuitedandBooted]

Would anyone like to try and put some comments on this story - I don't seem to be allowed!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Errr, well yes, I thought my posts had made clear I slept in a very small space with TWO WHOLE people of another sex. Actually more than 2 if you include the various youth hostels I've stayed in. I generally got changed in a cubicle in the toilets - more to save the blushes of others than myself.

And weirdly, there are quite a lot of people who would find sharing with people of another race far more threatening than of another sex. Y'know, blacks being sub-human and all that...

I think everyone should be able to get changed in privacy, if they want to. Whatever their chromosomal make-up and that of the others around them. Everyone should be able to go to sleep feeling safe.

But I have spent plenty of nights in communal dorms without having any threat.

Lass civil servants will always get single-occupancy berths, because they are typically travelling with official laptops/tablets/phones, and are not supposed to leave these unattended where a third party can get at them! (Useful out, because there's no other circs which would justify first class travel.)

I do make use of two person berths when I travel with DS - given where I live, getting to the rellies in the north of Scotland is an epic journey, and the sleeper bought in advance is comparable in expense to the overnight hotel stay which would otherwise be required.

But for me the position is quite simple - transwomen are biologically male, no matter how sincerely they wish they had been born female. And I do not wish to sleep in a berth with a biologically male individual I do not know.

Errr, well yes, I thought my posts had made clear I slept in a very small space with TWO WHOLE people of another sex. Actually more than 2 if you include the various youth hostels I've stayed in. I generally got changed in a cubicle in the toilets - more to save the blushes of others than myself

Why would any one's blushes need to be spared by your way of thinking?

Why does willingness to share a bedroom mean willingness to strip off? Lots of youth hostels have mixed sex dorms. That doesn't mean everyone is prancing about naked.

None of my reasonable comments from yesterday on the Daily Mail site are showing. Ridiculous censorship.

Lots of youth hostels have mixed sex dorms

And your point is what? They are presumably offered as mixed sex accommodation from the outset.

As is the Caledonian Sleeper from now on

It's about the power dynamics. I've slept in a lot of mixed dorms in mountain huts. This means that I typically have a friend present (whoever I'm climbing with), and there is hopefully the bystander effect - a whole load of other people around if anyone tried anything funny.

Being alone in a lockable compartment with a biological male I've never met before and don't know from Adam - totally different.

As for how many men and how many transwomen are predatory and the precise percentages relative to the population at large - well, it doesn't matter. There's behaviour well short of sexual violence that worries me. I'm sure there are very nice transwomen out there, but how would I guarantee I got one of those rather than the sort who tweet about "punching terfs", "starting a ruck at Milwall", the sort who verbally attacked the woman on the picket line the other day, the guy who allegedly punched the woman at speakers' corner (I have seen the video, but don't want to prejudice any court proceedings one way or the other). There are plenty of instances of transactivists showing very male-pattern aggressive and violent behaviour towards women. I would not want to be in a confined space with any of them.

It's interesting the way people who want to minimise women's concerns about being up and close with males always relate it to white people being racist towards black people. When actually, given the last few centuries of history and societal power structures, the appropriate comparison would in fact be a black person who was afraid to share with a white person. I'm never sure whether people doing this are being disingenuous or if they're simply experiencing an honest failure of understanding.

And frankly, if a black South African didn't feel comfortable sharing with a white stranger, after everything they've been through, I'd find that perfectly understandable.

But I have spent plenty of nights in communal dorms without having any threat.

So have I. But that doesn't mean I can't be empathetic to women who would not be comfortable to do this?

And I have to say that all of my experiences of mixed sex dorms involved other people. I was never alone just me and one bloke.

As is the Caledonian Sleeper from now on

No actually it isn't. For the next 6 months it is available to book as shared accommodation with a randomly allocated woman if you are a woman or man if you are a man. After October shared accommodation will only be offered to travellers who have chosen to share with each other.

So, we have established that:

• from now on, the Caledonian sleeper should be regarded as mixed sex

• this has been the case for years with youth hostels, without the slightest concern

• unlike youth hostels, the Caledonian sleeper is not a budget option. If you can afford the sleeper you can afford the other options

In what way is this undermining anyone's human rights?

Allington all well and good for you. What about others who who don't feel that way. I object strontly to your comparison of refusing to sleep in a same-sex space being with racisim. Women who don't want to share with men have good reasons. It isn't reverse sexism or transphobia, honestly. They don't trust men because they have experience that men are not to be trusted. Not because their bigots.

YY that's not your experience. YY NAMALT. We know. That's not the point.

strongly, not strontly ffs

How many people complaining about this decision HAVE to use the Caledonian sleeper? They don't have another, cheaper, option?

I have used it before because it was the cheapest way to get from A to B for the time I needed to be at B. The alternative was very expensive flights + taxi. Many people who use it do so for business travel; a lot of Scottish MPs use it for travelling to/from London (although they don't travel in the shared cabins).

So, we have established that:

- from now on, the Caledonian sleeper should be regarded as mixed sex

What are you on about? The Caledonian Sleeper is NOT advertised as "mixed sex" If it were this discussion would not arise. Why if is to be regarded as "mixed sex" does it ask when you book if you are male or female?

Segregation by biological sex has long been considered necessary in certain circumstances, to keep women & girls safe.

Transwomen are biologically men, with the physical strength of men and with the same rate of criminal offending as other men;
so a much higher rate of sexual and other violent offences than women have.
Most transwomen also have a penis.

I would refuse to be in a space with a transwoman, in any circumstances in which I would refuse to be in that space with any other man.

Re the absurd comparison to racism:
It is imo racist to bring in measures which will lead to some ethnic minorities being less able to participate in normal life.

But there are all sorts of situations where you might end up travelling in close proximity to a man, trans or otherwise. If that's too much of a risk for you, don't do it.

Charming.

There are single sex provisions on the trains in question, they aren’t honouring them.
But that’s fine, I’ll just say at home.

Many people who use it do so for business travel; a lot of Scottish MPs use it for travelling to/from London (although they don't travel in the shared cabins)

According to Scotrail very few people book the share with a stranger option. For same the reasons MPs don't share I doubt business customers would share either.

And no, I'm not minimising the suspicion of a black S African to a white S African. My (black) DD was told - openly, in front of me at the age of 4 - that 'girls with brown skin can't play, only girls with peach skin'. She has experienced racism that you (probably) can't even begin to imagine, and as her mother I desperately want to protect her but can't. I can only help her understand why so much of the world is brainwashed about brown skin.

That doesn't mean she is suspicious of white people. The person who loves her most (and, at present although the teen years are approaching! loves most, is white).

I am very sorry that any woman feels uncomfortable in a mixed dorm. But the reality is that this is their preconceptions, and their choice to avoid. Not that all men are predators.

As I have said, this is not from someone who is lucky enough to escape sexual violence. But I have been lucky enough to have a brother who is safe, and male friends who are safe. Not every man is a predator, and I don't think we do each other any favours to behave as if they are.

Lass, I'm aware many people don't share (which is why they're changing the model), but a fair number still do. I've travelled in a shared cabin for work before because my employer had a blanket ban on travelling first-class, even on the sleeper.

There are single sex provisions on the trains in question, they aren’t honouring them

Yes that is the point- why do they bother asking at the point of booking if the customer is male or female?

Giving transwomen a single berth seems a pragmatic way of enabling them to feel safe too