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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

317 replies

SuitedandBooted · 01/04/2018 11:38

Would anyone like to try and put some comments on this story - I don't seem to be allowed!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

OP posts:

Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 15:13

No I think it was a different one.

Allington · 02/04/2018 15:35

That if you don't want to travel on the Caledonian sleeper, given their policies then don't. Or any other entirely discretionary travel.

Women only spaces are as much a demand as allowing trans-whoever into those spaces. That there are competing rights. And that I just don't believe the vast majority of people transitioning are doing it to invade, bully and threaten. Just as most gay couples, if they dare to display affectionate behaviour to each other in public, are not trying to 'flaunt it', or inveigle others in to the 'homosexual lifestyle'. They're probably just trying to live their lives in a way that makes sense and has integrity to themselves.

The anecdote, by the way, was a case where my fears and perceptions turned out to be my own mindset, not the actions of others.

And that is said as someone who has been the target of sexual violence, before anyone starts with the 'you couldn't possibly understand'...

Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 15:40

And that I just don't believe the vast majority of people transitioning are doing it to invade, bully and threaten

What do you think "transitioning" actually means?

Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 15:41

Why do you think women should get over their feelings, but men's should absolutely be pandered to?

Allington · 02/04/2018 15:52

I don't think anyone's feelings should be absolutely pandered to, or anyone should 'just get over it'. I do have a problem with this being made into such a black and white them against us issue. I don't see trans-men/women as enemies. I do see a whole range of people being discriminated against, unsafe in their own skin, and the subject of harassment. Many are born with XX chromosomes, but not all.

The company running the Caledonian Sleeper has made their policy clear. Book a berth or don't, but your right to a female only space doesn't trump other's rights to a non-male space in an environment that is by any standards a luxury.

Just as don't holiday in a country where drinking alcohol/ having unmarried sex is illegal and then complain about the consequences of drinking alcohol / having unmarried sex.

Natsku · 02/04/2018 15:58

but your right to a female only space doesn't trump other's rights to a non-male space in an environment

How come others have the right to a non-male space but females don't?

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 16:05

That if you don't want to travel on the Caledonian sleeper, given their policies then don't. Or any other entirely discretionary travel

The option only exists for another 6 months. I know there are posters on here who have said they did share and would be happy to share with a strange women but that is not borne out by what Scotrail says the use is. Of the people I know who use/used it the only person I knew who was happy to do so was one man.

The current price for a single occupancy or shared occupancy if booked a month or so in advance is around £140 to £100. I doubt there are many people of either sex who would not just pay the extra £40 to avoid sharing with anyone.

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 02/04/2018 16:07

How come others have the right to a non-male space but females don't?

Yes, I was wondering this too?

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 16:08

To be clear that is London/Edinburgh prices.

Allington · 02/04/2018 16:21

It's OK for you to not want to share with a strange man, but someone else doesn't have that right? Because what the rail company are saying is that they don't accept anyone booking a 2 berth cabin then laying down who the second person is.

Allington · 02/04/2018 16:24

Could a woman (by birth and identification) demand not to share with a lesbian because she would find it threatening? Could a gay man legitimately demand that the man they share with is proven not to be homophobic (and therefore a potential threat)?

Allington · 02/04/2018 16:25

What if a racist person would find sharing with someone of a different race offensive and threatening?

boatyardblues · 02/04/2018 16:31

Newsflash! Women don’t find other women (lesbians) threatening.

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 16:33

You are being silly Allington. It is legal in the UK to offer facilities which are sex segregated. It is not legal to offer facilities which are race or sexual orientation segregated.

The NHS does , I understand, not refuse to treat a patient who is racist or homophobic (assuming they do not express their views in a threatening or aggressive way) because they primarily have a duty to their patients.

Rail companies are entitled and indeed would be bound to refuse to accede to a passenger asking for segregation on those grounds.

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 16:35

It is not legal to offer facilities which are race or sexual orientation segregated

That of course is not strictly true but there has to be very good reasons for it- train carriages are not definitely not one of them.

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 02/04/2018 16:40

What if a racist person would find sharing with someone of a different race offensive and threatening?

As Lass says, this equivalence does not work - we already have spaces segregated by sex, in a way that we do not generally have spaces segregated by race. This is because it is generally recognised that people of opposite sexes may not want to share intimate spaces together for many reasons.

It's why, as a primary school teacher, my year 4 children start getting changed in separate changing rooms. Those changing rooms are segregated by sex, not by the race of the children.

Allington · 02/04/2018 16:48

Hmmmm, living in South Africa at the moment, it is amazing how many people genuinely believe that race is an acceptable reason to segregate. Just as the acceptable norm right now is by sex. And only a few years ago to find you've shared an intimate space with someone of the same sex but different sexual orientation would be horrifying.

I'd be happy to revisit these assumptions in 10-20 years time. I suspect the threat will have turned out to be non-existent, along with the Section 28 prohibition of 'promoting' homosexuality.

But, as I said, no-one has to travel on the Caledonian sleeper (or Trans-Sib railway). In fact, at £100 for a shared sleeper, it's the luxury option. First World Problem - which isn't actually a problem.

Allington · 02/04/2018 16:50

How many people complaining about this decision HAVE to use the Caledonian sleeper? They don't have another, cheaper, option?

titchy · 02/04/2018 17:04

it is amazing how many people genuinely believe that race is an acceptable reason to segregate. Just as the acceptable norm right now is by sex. And only a few years ago to find you've shared an intimate space with someone of the same sex but different sexual orientation would be horrifying.

I'd imagine the segregation in your country is to keep the gay/BME group in their state of oppression. Not to ensure their safety against their straight white perpetrators.

Allington · 02/04/2018 17:09

Well, that's where we probably differ. Because I believe most trans-people are not perpetrators, but simply (like my gay friends) people trying to be who they feel themselves to be, and expressing that.

It's not my country btw, I'm from the UK and have lived and worked here for about a decade. With close gay friends/housemates in the UK. Plus adopted (black South African) DD and planning to return home in the next couple of year, partly because I think she'll experience less racism as a minority in the UK than as a majority in SA.

Just to address your assumptions...

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 17:15

The Caledonian Sleeper berths are one of the most expensive ways of getting from London to Scotland.

Edinburgh/ London the seated options on the sleeper train are considerably cheaper at £45 in advance (or £65 for flexible) as opposed to £100 in advance (£125 flexible) for shared or £140 in advance (£170 flexible) for single occupancy.

I am really not convinced there is a huge pool of people who are willing and able to pay £100, and risk sharing with a stranger, but are not willing and able to pay £140.

If I were using it for work expenses would cover a single occupancy cabin. I know a couple of people who are employed by the Scottish government who use it. I don't know what the expenses policy there is but they are sufficiently senior I expect they would pay the difference themselves if need be. I would be surprised if they had to.

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 17:21

Allington are you seriously saying that not wanting to get undressed and sleep in a very small space with a person of the opposite sex is no different from not wanting to get undressed and sleep in a very small space with a person of a different ethnic group?

Whilst personally the thought of getting undressed and sleeping in a very small space with any stranger is something I wouldn't contemplate it seems obvious to me there is no comparison.

Allington · 02/04/2018 17:22

So in the impact on anyone's life, it's a non-issue? But great to bash the trans-'activists'...?

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 02/04/2018 17:23

Just as the acceptable norm right now is by sex.

So you dont think we should have any sex segregated spaces? Mixed prisons, mixed DV refuges, mixed toilets, make adolescent and pre adolescent children get changed together?

You can't see any problem with any of that?

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 02/04/2018 17:24

make adolescent and pre adolescent children get changed together?

Sorry I meant make adolescent and pre adolescent children of the opposite sex get changed together, that didn't read right!

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