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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

317 replies

SuitedandBooted · 01/04/2018 11:38

Would anyone like to try and put some comments on this story - I don't seem to be allowed!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

OP posts:
Queenofthedrivensnow · 02/04/2018 11:01

Iirc the article says the sharing berths are being phased out this year so it will sort itself out.
I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing if I was travelling alone on a sleeper anyway

Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 11:12

It's a shame, because I think a lot of people used that service. I suspect this was possibly a factor in the reason they are abolishing them, or at least a plausible justification.

TheXXFactor · 02/04/2018 11:14

None of you has come up with an alternative solution that will be lawful, or that would protect women from having to share with a TM whom they believe to be male. The EA allows segregation of sleeping facilities by sex. It would not allow a group with protected characteristics to be disadvantaged - in this case by forcing trans people either to pay more to go First Class or travel in the less comfortable seated area.

If you enforce sharing by biological sex in this scenario, you get:

  1. women frightened because they think they are sharing with a man (Transmen who 'pass')

  2. Men from cultures that don't allow mixing of the sexes potentially unable to use their compartment if they are asked to share with a transwoman

  3. everybody feeling embarrassed and awkward.

No, it's not entirely fair if a trans person gets more space than someone else. But the whole arrangement of different classes of train travel is unfair - do you lot all get enraged because some people have more money than others and can travel first class all the time?

In any case, I'm still waiting for someone to come up with another option that is lawful and that stands any chance of being adopted by Scots Rail. Yes, it was all a lot easier before the trans movement, but trans people are here to stay. If we want businesses to keep women safe and not expect us to share facilities with TW, we have to make demands that are lawful and implementable - otherwise we're just making it easy for them to ignore us.

TheXXFactor · 02/04/2018 11:17

I believe from reading the article there were also carriages for people without a preference for sharing with the same sex. That would be another good solution for trans people who are travelling

There is no such option, at least at present. And I would be amazed if it were introduced - they would be too worried about a woman being assaulted. And yes, I do see the irony Grin

Hypermice · 02/04/2018 11:23

but being trans does not make you any more or less likely to commit crime than non trans who are the same sex

Exactly. The levels and patterns of sexual violence from trans women is identical to that of the general male population according to research.
So they pose the same risk as men
So they should not be in sex segregated sleeping cabins.

ScotsRail leave themselves open to legal action on safety grounds by allowing this. That’s the only way to get through to them on this - guys you’re going to sued.

SpringNowPlease2018 · 02/04/2018 11:23

just read comments

the TRAs have all joined DM to comment haven't they.

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/04/2018 11:27

Apparently on average only 4 people on any sleeper train chose the share with a stranger option.

From October it will only be possible to book single occupancy or as a couple. An example of pricing is an ensuite cabin is £295 if booked for one person or £360 for a couple; without the ensuite it is £200 for solo occupancy or £245 for a couple.

ButchyRestingFace · 02/04/2018 11:32

From October it will only be possible to book single occupancy or as a couple. An example of pricing is an ensuite cabin is £295 if booked for one person or £360 for a couple; without the ensuite it is £200 for solo occupancy or £245 for a couple

At least Dick Turpin wore a mask. 😷

That is some price hike.

IntelligentYetIndecisive · 02/04/2018 11:34

Sophia hasn't taken the Daily Mail feature very well.....

Corbyn's fanbase are none too happy about engaging gender criticals in reasoned debate, apparently......

Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!
Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 11:44

The EA allows segregation of sleeping facilities by sex. It would not allow a group with protected characteristics to be disadvantaged - in this case by forcing trans people either to pay more to go First Class or travel in the less comfortable seated area.

This kind of thing needs to go to court. They are not being discriminated against. This is communal accommodation and it is right and proper for these spaces to be single sex. Your solution wouldn't work on a fully booked train. I don't like these informal workarounds like giving TIMs private rooms in hospital. They're fine when that's available as a solution but you can't rely on it. What happens then? Women need sex segregated spaces protected and we need to keep highlighting and fighting until law and policy makers listen to us. And yes we may face losses before then.

ButchyRestingFace · 02/04/2018 11:46

I don’t understand all this “terfs want to exterminate transwomen” guff rhetoric at all. 🤨

I don’t believe that men who think they’re women are women. I don’t want them dead. I don’t want them harmed. I’ve yet to see anyone express such a view.

I’ve seen plenty of “die in a burny fire, #terfscum” frothing from transactivists on social media though.

The only people killing transwomen are other men, not gender critical females.

None of it makes sense. Sad

DoinItForTheKids · 02/04/2018 12:12

Wow that tweet from the delightful 'Sophia' is utterly vile. Talking about 'choke' - utterly abhorrent rhetoric.

The way these TAs behave, their aggressiveness level, the bullying and threatening nature of their dialogue, well it's just so, so MALE isn't it!!!

If you really felt like a woman and identified as a woman, wouldn't you want to be intrinsically supportive of women - the very thing you're wanting to be - or am I missing something?! If I'm not, they certainly are.

The reactions on the DM to the sleep cabins article demonstrate a general level of stupidity and dumbness on the whole. Are men (those who do and those who don't identify as women) really THAT stupid that they don't understand that most violent crimes are male person on female person - duh, that's why women are worried.

There IS no way to determine where on their gender transition journey someone is and whether they do or do not have mental health issues related to that and whilst the number of people at this end of the scale will proportionally be small, just the sheer fact of not wanting to share a space with someone who at that point will in effect be a man in a dress that probably still has a penis, is something I can understand a woman not wanting to have to partake in.

I had a grocery delivery a few weeks ago (and let me say, from the outset I'm totally pro someone taking steps to reflect how they identify gender-wise - fully supportive of it - the idea that wanting some controls mean you hate all trans people is rubbish - I don't!) and I opened the door to a 'man' (yes, he WAS a man) who was a good six foot four, full face of make-up, massive boobs, wild hair, gigantic hands and feet - clearly very much still male but on that journey. LOVELY to deal with but would I want to share a train compartment with him or get changed in a swimming baths in the same area as him or walk into my gym changing room and get changed next to him and see him getting changed - NO I bloody wouldn't! And would I want say my 6 year old DD to be exposed to that? No!

Not sure if anyone saw the recent documentaries about rape (male on female and male on male). VERY good programmes and the stories the women told highlight the different factors that were there in their rapes. One was the very situation of being asleep and then waking up to find you were being raped, well, that rings alarm bells with this sleeper issue and the woman in the documentary who'd been raped whilst being asleep had actually been in a situation she thought was completely safe - safer than being in a sleeper carriage with an unknown possibly-male) - anyone not willing to accept that these risks exist is deluded and joining in on making the world yet more unsafe for women.

I mean, we've got women and children in places like Switzerland unable to go about their normal business without the strong threat of being raped or sexually abused due to 'refugees' who have no respect for women or children, some of whom have got into those countries this time not by saying 'oh we identify as women' but by pretending to be young boys not adult males! It's just more of the same - using dishonesty as a cloak under which you can commit crimes on women. And going by the vile nature of the TAs verbalisations, the very thing they purport to want to be, is the thing they want to rip apart, destroy, dominate, and subjugate.

SpringNowPlease2018 · 02/04/2018 12:18

Doin "I opened the door to a 'man' (yes, he WAS a man) who was a good six foot four, full face of make-up, massive boobs, wild hair, gigantic hands and feet - clearly very much still male but on that journey. LOVELY to deal with but would I want to share a train compartment with him or get changed in a swimming baths in the same area as him or walk into my gym changing room and get changed next to him and see him getting changed - NO I bloody wouldn't! And would I want say my 6 year old DD to be exposed to that? No!"

My issue with him is I'd just think he was a man with a penis.

The Sophia thing - it's good news in that if Sophia is ranting, some people have actually sense after that article?

Hypermice · 02/04/2018 12:24

The only people killing transwomen are other men, not gender critical females.

Yes, exactly. I’d be intrigued to see the rates of violent crime committed by women against trans women. I’d put serious money on it being in the minimal to non existent range.
And yet feminists can die in a fire (Jesus that phrase, it just marks out anyone who uses it as a petulant snowflake, its and instant ‘idiot’ marker.)

This is a male violence issue - direct the ire at the men who you say are harming you.

If TERFs are so violent, maybe you don’t want to be in our spaces at all? No? Just the men you’re avoiding Sophia? Righto

Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 12:33

Transactivists still quote a couple of incidents that happened in the 70s. That's how often it happens.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 02/04/2018 14:10

I stayed in a hostel abroad a few years ago where I had booked to stay in a dorm with 6 beds in it. I booked the female only dorm as that's all I felt comfortable using but there was a cock up. After a few nights of sharing with only women, everyone else left. A man was then shown to the dorm to stay.

The staff, who were all in their twenties, were obviously trying to be polite but everyone involved was clearly trying to be cool about it but didn't feel comfortable, probably the man included. I realised I had to swallow my politeness and ask to be moved but the staff said before I even opened my mouth that actually none of them was comfortable with me sleeping alone with him. He seemed perfectly polite and nice but honestly I couldn't have fallen asleep with him there. He was at least thirty years older than me and Indian, which might well have been completely irrelevent - I know there are nice Indian men out there. But equally some have the idea that Western women are easy and it might have had an impact in what he attempted that night. I got moved to a private room alone.

Because this was a few years ago no one had the idea that I should stay put so as not to offend this guy. My safety was considered first. If I was in that situation now and risked being called a bigot if I wanted to move, well I can see someone who isn't very assertive, cough me, cough, sucking up their discomfort and spending the night awake in a state of anxiety. I'd paid maybe £15 for the room. It doesn't exactly leave you feeling comfortable about complaining.

Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 14:20

Because this was a few years ago no one had the idea that I should stay put so as not to offend this guy. My safety was considered first. If I was in that situation now and risked being called a bigot if I wanted to move, well I can see someone who isn't very assertive, cough me, cough, sucking up their discomfort and spending the night awake in a state of anxiety. I'd paid maybe £15 for the room. It doesn't exactly leave you feeling comfortable about complaining.

Yes you articulate the problem very well.

SpringNowPlease2018 · 02/04/2018 14:26

Eresh, what happened in the 70s that TRAs are talking about, please?

Fencing, tbf, if there was a room available it seems odd that the default wasn't to offer it in the first place. In fact, if it was the kind of hostel where you could drift in, I'd think they'd give him the room and leave the women's dorm for women....because after you moved, what would happen to a woman coming to stay?

Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 14:35

From what I have read before it was a previously female music festival in the US which became trans inclusive and there were disagreements among feminists about it. I think there was some physical violence aimed at a small group of trans identified males and their female supporters from a small group of radical feminists. I don't really know about it or what exactly happened. While this is obviously wrong, it happened a fairly long time ago and I think it's interesting that transactivists are still citing it rather than giving any evidence of the modern day violence against trans people they are implying happens.

Allington · 02/04/2018 14:58

A few years ago I travelled on the Trans-Siberian rail route. As a single woman, I got what in advance I would have called the worst possible option - in a room of 4 bunks there were 2 young Russian squaddies (I was almost old enough to be their mother) released from the best part of a year on the Russian-Chinese border.

It was great fun - yes, one of them propositioned me several times in the most polite way (speaking minimal English) - but they also made sure I knew when I could get off and on the train again without being left behind, bought local specialities at the stations where we stopped and insisted I share it with them, took 'no' for an answer, and when I finally got off (at Irkutsk) carried my bags for me until I found the guide who came to meet me.

Yes, I'm lucky I didn't have unresolved trauma (was abused by someone I knew as a teenager). But there are all sorts of situations where you might end up travelling in close proximity to a man, trans or otherwise. If that's too much of a risk for you, don't do it.

The Caledonian sleeper is not the only option for travelling that route (in fact, the time I went on it - because I love train journeys - it would have been cheaper to fly).

Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 15:00

If that's too much of a risk for you, don't do it.

So women who don't take the Trans Siberian railway and want female spaces should stay at home? Why is it so very wrong to say no to men?

Ereshkigal · 02/04/2018 15:02

It's good that you had a nice holiday. Failing otherwise to see the point of your anecdote.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 02/04/2018 15:10

Fencing, tbf, if there was a room available it seems odd that the default wasn't to offer it in the first place. In fact, if it was the kind of hostel where you could drift in, I'd think they'd give him the room and leave the women's dorm for women....because after you moved, what would happen to a woman coming to stay?'

It was odd. Plus I'd been there several nights and he was new. He should have been moved and not me. But I was happy to move just because I was so relieved to not have to share the room with him. The staff were all young so I'm guessing they weren't confident from the get go in sorting out room allocations and speaking up that he needed to be on his own instead of sleeping with one other woman. I didn't see any staff members over the age of about 23ish. Anyway, at least they got there eventually with separating us.

SpringNowPlease2018 · 02/04/2018 15:11

Eresh do you mean this?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Womyn%27s_Music_Festival

All, that sounds horrendous. I do think we should be okay to travel without being constantly propositioned.

SpringNowPlease2018 · 02/04/2018 15:13

Fencing, cross post
I worked in a youth hostel when I was 19. Doesn't sound like they applied any common sense, age irrelevant really.