Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

[SuitedandBooted]

Would anyone like to try and put some comments on this story - I don't seem to be allowed!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Use a 16yo in my example then, which works equally well.

Young people travel by themselves all the time including long haul flights etc. so I imagined they would be allowed to!

On a plane they are surrounded by all the other passengers - not shut in a tiny lockable cubicle.

This thread is getting terribly heated up for something which will (a) cease to be an option at all in October 2018 and (b) has been increasingly unpopular for some time.

Use a 16yo in my example then, which works equally well

Would you really be happy about a 16 year old being in the tiny locked cabinet that is a Caledonian Sleeper alone with a complete stranger? Would a 16 year old even want to be?

Lass I am not sure what your point is here.

I am not a 16 yo about to travel on this train. It is an example.

16 or over can travel, and according to this, one who is going in a same sex berth could be bunked in with a man.

I am really not sure what you're getting in a tizzy about?

I am really not sure what you're getting in a tizzy about?

I don't think I'm the one getting in a tizzy. The option to share with a stranger will go in 6 months- it is not popular anyway yet this thread reads as if 1000s of women are desperate to use it and being thwarted by hordes of trans people.

It’s not that there are 1000s of women wanting to use the sleeper and 100s of trans women stopping them, it’s the principal.
It’s quite likely that this situation will never arise.
It’s the drip drip drip of erosion that is the worry.

Lass your previous posts have been saying it is not unreasonable for women to want single sex berths. Adn challenging the person who says their policy is not a problem.

Have you changed your mind?

It's not actually that unlikely given that a small number of TRAs are actively seeking out single sex stuff and trying to use it to see if they meet resistance.

Lass your previous posts have been saying it is not unreasonable for women to want single sex berths. Adn challenging the person who says their policy is not a problem

Have you changed your mind?

No , but I dislike tone and the turn this thread has taken with such flights of fantasy as 15 year olds being threatened by trans people.

?

Flights of fancy?

You have said that you would never share with a stranger of either sex which is your choice but you have to realise it is extreme. Young people can and do travel around, loads of the time, all over the place. I certainly did when I was young, and my friends too!

The issue as ever is also not likely to be "trans people" but they allow for anyone who says they are a woman in with the women. This is opening the system up for abuse.

Many women- especially younger ones - 16 / 18 /22 whatever would be much less likely to complain than older women.

Older women who are more likely to complain would likely be asked to leave themselves.

It is not a flight of fancy given that many organisations now go on self ID - irrespective of the equalities act

And that some of the more extreme TRAs are seeking out single sex facilties to "test" whether they are "trans inclusive" and then clobbering them on social media if they are not.

If you have decided that this policy is not a problem after all then that is a pretty quick turnaround. So the idea is that you don't think women should be offered same sex, and given same gender ie could be in with a chap,

But as soon as the conversation takes a turn you don't like - or maybe there is a poster you don't like - you change your mind? And say oh well it's only 6 months and I wouldn't share with a stranger anyway and it's very unlikely so actually it's not a problem after all.

And who said anything about "threatened"?

Don't you understand that men don't actually need to do anything illegal - or even deliberate - to make women feel uncomfortable?

A woman might well be made uncomfortable sharing a room with a man even if he does absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever.

The basis of single sex facilities is about more than just violence.

flights of fantasy as 15 year olds being threatened by trans people.

It’s not trans people as such, it’s men who will use this as a loop hole to gain access to vulnerable women and girls. Think that won’t happen? Just think about all the men in the past who trained as teachers, priests, scout leaders, ran children’s homes just to access children and vulnerable women. Why bother with all that any more when you can just stick on a frock and call yourself Crystal.

For the hard of thinking and easily confused, I am not suggesting for one moment that trans women are child abusers or rapists, not for one moment. What I am saying is that men who are paedophiles will be able to claim they are trans

Won't work for paedophiles, as PP points out you have to be 16 or over to travel alone in these cabins.

There are few enough people sharing (although there are still some!) that a third space would work fine as an option here. If you’re biologically, but present as female, and don’t feel comfortable in male sleeping spaces, there should be a way to say that on booking so that you’re top priority for travelling alone or sharing with someone else in the same position. I’d be fine with sharing with another woman in favour of a trans person having their own cabin, then everyone feels safe and comfortable.

(Of course I see from Twitter that we are all just awful transphobes for even wanting a solution that isn’t “continue to sell tickets as single-sex while not actually providing that”. The GOOD women are all totally happy to share with male-bodied people, it’s only us bigots who mind! )

“biologically MALE but present as female” that is.

It’s the drip drip drip of erosion that is the worry.

YY. The further legitimisation of women being placed in this position. The further normalisation of males in female spaces.

Also the increasingly overbearing narrative that wanting single sex spaces at all is exclusionary and selfish, that the right thing to do is suck up your discomfort.

Yes!

Won't work for paedophiles, as PP points out you have to be 16 or over to travel alone in these cabins.

Oh well that’s ok then. Good job no rapist is clever enough to think of this eh.

If I never hear the word "exclusionary" again it will be too soon. It sets my teeth on edge.

I'd love to hear the evidence and logic that says a biological male is a woman
I don't expect to though

Most women wouldn't choose to share with a male stranger in a locked compartment would they?

I mean even if he's perfectly fine (which most would be) it's still not something most would be keen on.

I think a big mixed group is different - so a hostel with a group of girls and boys / men and women in.

I stayed on a mixed hosp ward when I was 18 and I was the only woman in there, I felt incredibly uncomfortable. It wasn't a high risk ward so the nurses didn't come around that often. 2 of the men were just staring at me. No-one did anything wrong but still I felt v uncomfortbale.

You have said that you would never share with a stranger of either sex which is your choice but you have to realise it is extreme. Young people can and do travel around, loads of the time, all over the place. I certainly did when I was young, and my friends too!

Straw man. The thread is about the miniscule sleeper cabins on the Caledonian sleeper- which almost nobody wants to share with a stranger regardless of that person's sex - nothing "extreme" about it.
And generally even young people are sharing with a group they know or are in a large group. There will be very few situations where a traveller is sharing a space the size of a broom cupboard with one other unknown person.

The thread then degenerated into all sorts of scenarios, including one which cannot ever happen, of trans or would be trans threatening women.

flights of fantasy as 15 year olds being threatened by trans people

It’s not trans people as such, it’s men who will use this as a loop hole to gain access to vulnerable women and girls. Think that won’t happen?

As I pointed out the Caledonian sleeper does not accept bookings for unaccompanied 15 year olds - so yes the scenario posited was a flight of fantasy.

I don’t think anyone wants to share with a stranger, but people are still doing it and will be until October. Cal Sleeper even temporarily dropped the option earlier this year on the existing trains and a fair few people were annoyed then because it removed the “budget” option.