If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

[midgebabe]

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

AngryAttackKittens

I didn't call anyone a lair. I just posted the content of the link provided by DoctorW in her own study. Here is some more cut and paste.

Our study shows that TIMs show a rate of sex offending that is at least the same or higher than that of male inmates who do not identify as transgender. This matches a similar observation by Dhejne et al. (2011), who showed that TIMs exhibited male-pattern criminality for violent crimes.

Follow link and you get

Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Make up your own mind on if lies were told or not!

That particular comment wasn't aimed at you, Debbie, I was talking to Rumple.

*RE Feeling like a man/woman, if what people mean is that they feel masculine/feminine then that would make some sort of sense in that the stereotypes exist and we all know which traits are "supposed" to fall into each culturally determined bucket. The solution to that is to get rid of the stereotypes so that if someone's personality doesn't "match" it doesn't matter.

If what they mean is that they feel male/female then that makes no sense at all because how could you possibly know what it feels like to inhabit a body that you never have inhabited? It would be like me (shortarse) saying that I feel tall - how would I know what that feels like?*

100%. And hating being short doesn't mean you are tall.

‘We can’t tell the difference between men and women and therefore all loos might as well be unisex’ is an argument for more unisex loos. However, it doesn’t have much to do with self ID which is about access to single sex facilities.

We will never have sensible debates about the need for unisex and single sex facilities while so many people (the Labour Party in particular) are frightened of challenging the current dogma that being a woman is some vague unknowable subjective state that has nothing to do with vaginas.

Rumple Feeling humiliated for not conforming to gender standards is unpleasant. No doubt about it. It doesn't pose the same threat as aggressive intimidation by adult men, though, surely? I would rather my GNC child's feelings be hurt if this is the choice.

Women and girls experience the kind of harassment that my DD did all the time. I have never witnessed a masculine or androgynous woman being challenged in a female space (but believe you that this sometimes happens). Seen hundreds of examples of males harassing females though.

I agree with you about gender and the UK. We should just get rid of sex stereotypes altogether.

Debbie6666 is treading a well worn path that they have trodden before.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3156818-M-S-changing-room-policy

In the interests of expediency, the other study (Californian) that has been done on trans prisoners has produced similar results.

""A similar observation has been published using official prison data and by interviewing transgender inmates in Californian prisons in the US. From a male prison population of approximately 130,000 men, a total of 298 TIMs were identified. Sixty-eight of these were sex offenders (20.5%). This was higher than the average rate of sex offenders in prison among all male inmates (14.6%). Similarly, the proportion of TIMs in maximum-security prisons (custody level 4) was higher than the average rate for all male prisoners (32.1 vs 22.8%)."

Links on fair play for women.

There is little studying being done about this, but one study that has been completed claims:

"The incidence of transvestism in sexual offenders, however, has been found to be very much higher. In a study of over 500 sex offenders, it was observed that over half exhibited transsexualism and/or cross-dressing as their primary paraphilia."

Debbie your analysis doesn't reassure me. So transwomen retain male pattern criminality after transition? Male criminality is sky high in comparison to female criminality.

The increase in transmale criminality is interesting. I'd like to know more about that.

The increase in transmale criminality is interesting. I'd like to know more about that.

Yes, the same study did find that transmen have an increased pattern of criminality, not as high as men but higher than women.

What I find astonishing that trans advocates seem to think this shores up their argument, rather than underpinning yet another disadvantage of the ideology.

It would be like me (shortarse) saying that I feel tall - how would I know what that feels like?

According to DH, it feels very like hitting your head on the doorframe at least once a week.

ChampiontheWonderHamster

I will have to go and have a re-read of it as today i was looking at the links provided by DoctorW's own study,

Either way I think its dishonest to represent data from a group from over 30 years ago where the subsequent group in the same study shows a different result and apply it to today's situation without acknowledging the subsequent group. Its rather selective in its approach and does not lend credibility to the study relying on it for support.

@Datun I've seen your posts loads before and have a lot of respect for you. I don't always agree but you're very well informed and passionate. Quentin said on the last page that what people want is No change to the status quo. No to self ID. Do you agree with that? It just seems at odds with one of your posts -

It's all nonsense! We shouldn't even be debating mechanisms by which men may, or may not, get to serve their time in a female prison.

Gender dysphoria is a psychological condition giving a man the delusion that he is a woman.

And/or, it's a cross dressing fetish.

Neither of which should be afforded extra civil rights, ffs

I thought perhaps there are two different viewpoints on here rather than just one, so some people are just anti self ID, but some are anti the whole idea of transgenderism? Not in a nasty way, but just don't buy into it all (which I completely get). If that's right do you mind me asking what you personally want? Is it no change to the status quo or is it something different?

Sorry for the long post, thank you.

Mumsnet is a massively moderated censored site - if you want to read some real world comments go to Reddit, Pistonheads or any of a thousand other forums out there.

I come on here to keep a weather eye on opinion and to have a laugh at AIBU, if I want to say what I really think I use other sites.

ChampiontheWonderHamster

The copies of the study i am reading do not support your claims for either group, but I will take a closer look later and come back and conceded the point if I find i am wrong.

It doesn't change my posts that were referenced to the information pages DoctorW linked to in order to back up her study though, Her links don't support her claims even if the underlying study might.

YY Datun. TIM criminality remaining at male levels but an increase in TIF criminality means an increase in crime overall Surely a cause for concern?

Cross posted Debbie.

Sandrez, I should think there are as many viewpoints on here as there are women, surely? And some people started out by thinking 'no change, all working fairly well as it is' and then, on hearing about problems with the status quo, started to think 'Or actually, it looks like quite a lot that was beneficial to girls and women has already been lost -- how do we start to get it back?'

That should have read 'as many viewpoints as there are people', not just women.

Oh absolutely dodo, of course. I was just curious as to what different people might want that's different from just no self ID.

Do you just want no self ID dodo or do you think other things are necessary?

Sanderz

Thanks for asking. It's not often I get asked my overall view.

I disagree with transgenderism as an ideology.

The definition of a woman is not a feeling in a man's head. And to suggest otherwise is, to me, antifeminist as it relies on re-enforcing gender stereotypes. Something that feminists have spent decades trying to dismantle.

That doesn't mean I don't understand that we are all working within a constructed, gendered system and that to people with gender dysphoria, presenting as the opposite sex alleviates their symptoms.

The parting of ways, for me, comes when instead of recognising that phenomenon, you endorse it.

So self identification, becomes a sort of uber endorsement of something that shouldn't be endorsed in the first place.

Gender dysphoria should be recognised as a reaction to a highly gendered society, which is damaging. It can be treated, accommodated, no problem.

What it can't be, is accepted as anthing other than a belief.

Henry Wimbush @MrHenryWimbush
Transwomen are women. Lesbians are attracted to ladies with penis. Misgendering is literal violence. Biology is bigotry. No predator would ever lie in order to gain access to vulnerable. Sterilizing & mutilating children who don't conform to gender stereotypes is progressive.

This whole argument in one tweet.

Do you just want no self ID dodo or do you think other things are necessary?

Hmm, good question.
I think what I want, more than anything, is honesty and transparency - it should be possible to say:

'Boys are male, girls female.'
'Sam is a boy but transgender, so needs or prefers to wear typically feminine clothes, and shouldn't be laughed at for it.'
'Girls have periods.'
'No one's sex can change.'
'Some people feel so strongly about their bodies that they have plastic surgery to change them.'
'We allocate accommodation on gender grounds, which may therefore be mixed sex. If you or your child do not want this, we will make sure there is a single-sex option also available.'
'These employment statistics/crime statistics are broken down into male and female. This proportion of the respondents are male [or female] but identify as a different gender.'
'Lesbian and gay people are same-sex attracted and should not be pressured into relationships with the opposite sex.
'Our school uniform has a skirt or trousers option.'
'Our knitting club and chess club are open to both male and female students, but the lesbian society is open only to biological girls.'

Oops, sorry, went on a bit there.

I realise that some of those things can be disagreed with (I'm not saying 'Sam' IS a girl by wearing frills or skirts) but I'd like to stop all this awful obfuscation. 'Girl' is not an insult. 'Man' is not an insult. 'Trans', while it means different things to different people, is also not an insult.