If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

[midgebabe]

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

Archeryannie it’s a bit of a tangent from the discussion but I find your point about girl guides a bit odd. Girls have been allowed to join the scouts for years. I don’t remember anyone caring too much. I will admit I find the whole movement bizarre to be honest and deeply sexist. Even in the 90s brownies were still doing things such as a ‘washing up’ and ‘knitting’ badges, whilst the boys were off having fun building dens and starting camp fires. It sounds to me like they’re actually taking steps to bash down the ridiculous gender stereotypes that has governed the movement for so long. Should both boys and girls be allowed segregated spaces from each other? Or does this breed more gender inequality? I know what I think but that’s just my opinion.

It’s a bit like the incidents of women using the men’s loos to avoid the queue. They all assumed no man who came along would actually call us out for doing it. It does seem to me that lots of women wouldn’t call for the sanctity of all male spaces yet become affronted when men and boys encroach their spaces.

Yawn. I’ve run both girl guides and scouts groups. You should have seen the hysteria when I tried to get my cubs their bloody home helper badge. Oh yes I did. I brought in a Hoover, an iron, an ironing board, and a sewing kit so they could learn how to sew on a badge. (There was also taking telephone messages and changing light bulbs). You would have thought I was lining them up against a wall and ripping off their bollocks.
A beaver leader walked past and yelled ‘oi, what are you lot doing all that women’s work for?’
Believe me, rumpled, there are bloody good reasons why girls and women need their own spaces, to get away from those attitudes.

Girls have been allowed to join the scouts for years. I don’t remember anyone caring too much,

You are right, Rumpled, and nobody cared because everyone concerted - staff, volunteers and children - knew that scouts was a mixed-sex organisation, and understood that when the scouts were on residentials, or doing something that required changing facilities, etc, there would be appropriate, safe single-sex dormitories and changing rooms for those young people to use.

Guides haven't said that they are going mixed-sex, they've just redefined single-sex so that it isn't single-sex, but includes boys who identify as girls. Their official guidence tells their own guide leaders that parents and girls aren't going to be told in advance (or possibly at all, though I don't understand how it'll be kept secret) when boys will be joining any unit, or taking part in any activitiies that require overnight stays or changing facilities.

And the current climate of "girls are mean if they object to sharing intimate space with boys" means that girls who do hate it will be under a lot of pressure to keep quiet about being distressed. They will just leave. There's also plenty of parents that will just withdraw their girls when they discover what has been happening. And so thus yet another facility whose entire purpose is to be there for girls will become inaccessible to those very girls it is meant to serve.

I don't know..I mean, exogenous testosterone isn't required for physical health. If female prisoners are claiming "trans", taking male levels of testosterone and the drug is making them aggressive enough to endanger fellow female inmates, its obviously causing unwanted reactions and needs to be stopped. Because it's either that or seg them, to be fair to everyone else.

No child, man, woman or beast should be told to do housework for what’s meant to be a fun hobby tbh. I guess that’s why I find the entire movement so creepy. It’s all very last century.

*Or dosage decreased to a safe level.

It’s a bit like the incidents of women using the men’s loos to avoid the queue. They all assumed no man who came along would actually call us out for doing it. It does seem to me that lots of women wouldn’t call for the sanctity of all male spaces yet become affronted when men and boys encroach their spaces

The safest toilets will soon be the men's as all the men who want to harass women, will be [guess where???]...

I find your point about girl guides a bit odd.

How dense can you be? Guides are implementing mixed sex accommodation for tweens and teens on camps and residentials but maintaining that these are single gender accommodations and that there is therefore no safeguarding risk of consensual sexual activity leading to pregnancy let alone anything of an abusive nature. Not only that, but any information on whether a particular residential will have mixed sex accommodation is forbidden to be disclosed to the participants and their parents.

And, when challenged, are issuing explicit confirmations that this is their position. They might as well say they think babies are delivered by bloody storks.

Rumpledfaceskin: yes the scouts "allowed" girls to join, in 1991 for all sections, after a big fall in numbers. And yes, there was quite an outcry at the time, many units resisted the change and some split to form the Baden Powell scouts which stayed all boys.
Girlguiding stayed as a single sex organisation until jan 2017, when the wording was changed to "single gender".
When asked gguk members have always replied saying they wanted to stay girl only.
For the record, we don't just wash up or learn how to do the cleaning - we do everything the scouts do and more, but in our own way. The latest badge to be announced is an aeronautics badge for Brownies btw.

Oh and the cubs? What about this:

members.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/4315/home-help-activity-badge/?cat=12,67,776&moduleID=10

Remarkably similar to a Brownie badge I did in the 1960's.

debbie6666

DoctorW

^Your study found 10 trans prisoners in IOW and labelled them as sex offenders due to your claim that IOW only houses sex offenders as explained in your study because 98% of inmates are sex offenders.

A check of the MOJ confirms that IOW also holds venerable prisoners. you know the type of inmate trans prisoners are! But even so with over 1000 inmates in IOW your 10 only represent 1% of the population and half of your ignored 2% population .

How did you account for and identify those 20 non sex offender prisoners in your study before you marked the 10 trans prisoners as sex offenders?^

correct - Isle Of Wight prison is a specialist sex offender and hold 98% sex offenders. The other 2% are local residents from the Island on remand. And unless the Isle of Wight is a hotbed for transgender criminals I think its safe to say the most likely explanation is that the 10 trans prisoners there are sex offenders.

I would have loved to have confirmed with the MoJ that they are convicted of sex offences but alas this information was not given to me, despite a freedom of information request.

Regarding the term vulnerable prisoners. Sex offenders are considered vulnerable prisoners because they are at risk of violence from other inmates. Trans prisons and indeed anyone at risk of harm from other prisoners are often held on a vulnerable prisoner wing in a prison. However, the cost of housing a prisoner in a specialist sex offender prison is much much higher than a normal prison so its very unlikely any ordinary vulnerable prisoners would be held there - most would be accommodated on a vulnerable prisoner wing in a standard prison. It would be a last resort to send a vulnerable prison who was not a sex offender to the IOW prison. only prisoners like ex-police who are at serious risk.

But yes, even if we assume the highly unlikely scenario that all 10 of these trans prisoners from IOW were not sex offenders, and the same for the Littlehey sex offender prison. We are still left with at least 26 trans sex offenders. This is still at least as high at the % of sex offenders in the male prison population (17%). And this is the point isnt it. We wouldn't let non-trans prisoners live with women because so many of them are sex offenders. The same principle applies to trans prisoners. This study shows that transwomen prisoners have a pattern of criminality that is male . Completely different to the tiny % of women convicted of sex offences.

This study uses all the publicly available information there is to make the best estimate it can. What we need to hard facts from the MOJ. They could tell us the proportion of trans prisoners who are sex offenders but refuse to do so. Information like this is crucial if we are to properly and fairly risk assess the impact of policy change on women prisoners.

So it would just be preferable to make guides mixed sex really. Or my preferred option abolish them altogether as it’s completely archaic.

I’d feel safer the busier the toilet, regardless of the sex of the people in there. Not literally everyone is a sex offender. And maybe women wouldn’t have to queue for so fucking long as an added bonus.

I was joking really, it’s not something I’d ever want my nearest and dearest involved with in the same way I wouldn’t like them to join some sort of cult but it would probably just be better to make them all open to all.

berkinbag
So if a MTF prisoner who self-identifies (no GRC) and who wishes to move to the female estate can already do so under current prison policy, what is really going to change if self-id is enacted under the GRA?

The significant thing at the moment is that if a trans prisoner wants to transfer to female prison but does not have a GRC (so is legally male) they have to have their case referred to a transgender review board who will look at the evidence and decide what to do. So if they are to dangerous or trying to abuse the system this panel will obviously not allow them to move.

In contrast if getting a GRC becomes a matter of signing a form then these prisoners will be able to by pass the panel stage and become automatically eligible for women's prison. The self-ID stage removes the ability for the prison to make common sense decisions. They will have to consider them all female, even the obviously false ones.

Should we abolish every organisation we disagree with then? How very authoritarian.

I mean, I personally find the whole quasi-militaristic vibe of scouts etc. a bit off, but lots of parents and children find many positive aspects of the organisation. Who am I to tell them they're wrong. I'm an agnostic, so wouldn't send my child to Sunday school or a religious school - but lots of parents do believe, and send their children there. And if I want them to respect my lack of belief (which I do) then by the same token I should respect their beliefs.

I tend to view trans issues along analogous lines. I do not buy into the quasi-religious belief that transwomen are women, lady souls trapped in men's bodies, #nodebate. Others do buy into it. No-one should be policing other people's beliefs. However, the practical consequences - men in women's prisons, men in DV and rape crisis centres, men in women's sports - those I do care about. Beliefs don't matter. Actions following from those beliefs do.

ChampiontheWonderHamster
And the Cubs/Scouts? Abolish them too?

Cubs and Scouts are a mixed sex club but if sleeping arrangements are allowed to be mixed at least everyone knows that is whats happening. Parents will be aware, leaders will be aware, the girls will be aware.

In Girl guides no one is allowed to know if a natal boy is sleeping in the same tent / room as their daughters. Parents can't give informed consent. This is the difference.

So it would just be preferable to make guides mixed sex really. Or my preferred option abolish them altogether as it’s completely archaic.

Guides is now mixed-sex - it's just that they are currently lying and telling girls and their parents that it's still girls-only. With the best of intentions (perhaps) but it's still bloody dangerous and exclusionary.

And it's fine if you or your DDs don't want to make use of a single-sex organisation! But that's a decision for you alone, and not a decision you can take on behalf of the half-a-million girls who do want actively to take part in girls-only activities.

but it would probably just be better to make them all open to all

They are now open to all. They just aren't being clear with parents and the girls that they are open to all.

Counting down to a massive safeguarding lawsuit in a couple of years' time....

For those that think nobody in the real world cares, this video is a controversial US media personality discussing the impact on women more widely. He does skate pretty close to the edge but the point is this is happening, for real, out there. And it will affect real women and girls.

Ha, Champion, I should have known! Gender nonconforming girls are turfed out eventually but boys who identify as girls are welcome.

It's not going to be the FTM Guides that get other Guides pregnant, is it?

if sleeping arrangements are allowed to be mixed at least everyone knows that is whats happening. Parents will be aware, leaders will be aware, the girls will be aware

There is usually a girls tent and boys tent for sleeping for cubs...i dont kniw about scouts

but there would (i imagine) be shared tents for guides if a transgirl is the same as a girl