If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

[midgebabe]

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

I don't think anyone (Apart from trans rights activists) is making a big deal about people who just need to pee using the toilets of their choosing. It has been happening for years and no changes were required.

This idea that feminists want to inspect everyone's genitals is just barking. What we want is no change to the status quo. No to self ID.

If you can explain to me, why it is that the change to self-ID is necessary and what benefits it brings to trans people, I am all ears.

I don’t think legal self ID is sensible because of the small risk of people abusing it, but to claim that MN is not obsessed with loos and changing rooms is disingenuous. The majority of the threads seem to centre around it. That’s my whole point (and what I mean when I say it borders on hysteria) and why I often switch off from it, because in real life most people don’t actully care or think about who might be in a cubicle next to them, they just want a piss as quickly as possible. And even if they cared, no one really, truly has the authority to tell another member of the public that they have a penis or not just by looking at them. The one area of public life I do generally think fake trans people are a risk is in prisons which is being discussed. It’s obvious to me for that reason alone self ID would be exceptionally problematic.

I’ve read a few of the millions of trans threads and swiftly jacked it in because I really can’t be arsed to waft through pages and pages

The majority of the threads you havent read

You probably missed the interesting non toilet ones

Don't think we can be reading the same threads.
In my experience usually someone comes on to build a huge straw man about feminists wanting to inspect genitals before people can go to the toilet and details the thread.

I think for some reason TRAs would rather we talked about toilets than teenagers school trips, prisons, women's refuges, sports, hospitals etc.

Interesting the different perceptions of the same threads.

To be fair to you rumple like quentin i have seen thread derailed by toilet talk

Usually when people are honestly trying to discuss something else and a plopper comes in with the fascinating information that they are happy to share toilets

When nobody was talking about the bloody things

Rumpledfaceskin I genuinely appreciate you continuing to post here. My views on this topic have done a massive U Turn in the last year. I like having the finer details of my opinions challenged because I'm fully aware of being in the 'bigot' chair. It's uncomfortable. But it seems that there's no other place for me ATM.

It would be so much easier to go back to saying 'it's probably going to be fine'.

Re toilets. My 13 yo and her friend were harassed by a group of three men yesterday. Intimidated. I don't want it to be normal for men like that to be anywhere near my DD in enclosed, vulnerable spaces. I don't want DD using unisex toilets or changing rooms. I don't want her boundaries blurred. She is not yet equipped to deal with these situations.

Adult human female

Well, yes, that's the definition I understand, too. But apparently it's wrong. And we're bigots if we hold to that definition.

If we are @JellySlice then so is the law

Equality Act 2010 Section 212 (1)

“woman” means a female of any age.

I don't think there will be any change while it's still considered transphobic to insist that the difference between men and women is limited to their physical biology and that gender is a social construct that doesn't exist.

I'm pretty sure that 5-10 years ago these were just basic truisms. Being open minded and liberal, I'd be willing to listen to other points of view, It's just that nobody is able to explain what these are, except something about women having to be nice and inclusive.

Re: Loos and Changing rooms.

I don't care much about loos or changing rooms and regularly get changed in full view of everyone on the beach (live near sea, go in water all year round). But then I am able bodied, continent and have manageable periods. In all honesty, I don't care about public loos and changing rooms because I can pretty much avoid using them.

Other people have different experiences.

Other people have different experiences.

There's an inherent narcissism in so much TRA that I don't think they can get their heads around that ^

I have often seen people in public whose biological sex is completely undeterminable.

Absolute horseshit. Humans can recognise a fellow human being's sex with almost 100% accuracy. (One of a gazillion studies confirming: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15249109).

We're also getting closer to working how we can also recognise the sex of another human being in the dark, which we also can. We do it by smell (www.scientificamerican.com/article/human-sexual-responses-boosted-by-bodily-scents/).

I sympathise with the trans people who desperately want to pass and don't, but the fact is that 99.99% of them DO NOT PASS.

I don't think I've ever encountered a person whose biological sex was undeterminable, and I've spent time in the part of Thailand that has the highest concentration of khathoey.

DoctorW

The things we can take away from the noms data is that either there are far more AFAB trans prisoners, something never mentioned in the reporting of your study. Or that the claim AMAB prisoners self identifying as trans and female is false as given the chance they just resoundingly didn't do that. Like you say they they "Self Reported", and they did so as Male.

As for your comment that I am belittling your study, then sorry, you put it out there and are using it to try and influence government policy and public opinion with substantial claims when it doesn't stand up to basic criticism and even goes as far as misrepresenting Dhejne et al to support its finding, when the Dhejne et al study only found that evidence in the pre1989 group. The post 1989 through 2003 group, which is most relevant to today, had completely different evidence.

Sorry but the data to support your claims simply is not there, campaigning for it to be collected is the right thing to do, not going out there and making assumptions and guesses that fit your own bias and claiming them as fact.

Thanks for calling me a liar for pointing out an inconvenient truth to people obsessed with sex that lots of people ARE androgynous, and more will probably become so as we move to more acceptance of it (you clearly just aren’t very observant). I have said I’ve witnessed first hand the humiliation of women challenged because they don’t conform to gender stereotypes. I wouldn’t want that for my daughter either.

Angryattack I’ve also spent time in that part of Thailand and I call BS on that. I didn’t have a clue who had a dick. On a side note I think we’ve created a lot of problems for ourselves in the U.K. by being so fuck8ng obsessed with gender. I wish we did have a cultural system more like Thailand.

rumple

Who has called you a liar??

Someone can be androgynous and you can still tell what their sex is. In fact the more GNC people you've spent time around the easier it is to do so. I've met very pretty men who wear far more makeup than I do. You can still tell that they're men.

Thanks for calling me a liar for pointing out an inconvenient truth to people obsessed with sex that lots of people ARE androgynous, and more will probably become so as we move to more acceptance of it (you clearly just aren’t very observant). I have said I’ve witnessed first hand the humiliation of women challenged because they don’t conform to gender stereotypes. I wouldn’t want that for my daughter either.

What are you even talking about?

You said that people couldn't tell the sex of many other human beings just by looking.

Several posters replied that actually, human beings have an unerring ability to distinguish biological sex just by looking.

Exactly where is the moral judgement?

No wonder you keep talking nonsense about what's written in this forum. You're projecting all the way.

Maybe you should take your own advice and be more observant then, because ime most people in Thailand have no problem at all noticing who's female and who's khathoey.

My (east Asian) partner says that he thinks that the supposed inability of many Westerners to tell whether or not someone is khathoey is based on racism, and I'm inclined to think that he's right.

For me, it's the blatant sexism of "feeling like a man/woman" that gets me every time. Their belief that gender is a real thing. Just because they hate their bodies and suffer from a mental disorder doesn't mean they are actually their preferred sex.
A lot of this "stop gendering genitals" bullshit ultimately comes from a place of insecurity and wanting to be validated.

DoctorW

just to make the point about reading the small print. The summary of the Dhejne et al study you link to in your study as supporting your claims says the following.

Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Also kind of funny that you went directly from "how dare you call me a liar?" to "btw you're lying", Rumple.

This is fan-dubbed which is annoying, but watching this last night and what did this scene make me think of

RE Feeling like a man/woman, if what people mean is that they feel masculine/feminine then that would make some sort of sense in that the stereotypes exist and we all know which traits are "supposed" to fall into each culturally determined bucket. The solution to that is to get rid of the stereotypes so that if someone's personality doesn't "match" it doesn't matter.

If what they mean is that they feel male/female then that makes no sense at all because how could you possibly know what it feels like to inhabit a body that you never have inhabited? It would be like me (shortarse) saying that I feel tall - how would I know what that feels like?