“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

My whole argument is based on the internal sense of self.

Yes it is. An that argument of an inner sense of self is founded on the deeply misogynistic idea that girls and women do not have a material reality.

That girls and women exist only as social constructs as defined by men.

And yet we live in a world that abuses, exploits, harms, kills, controls and exploits girls and women because of their material reality.

Talk about having your cake and eating it!!

A person is their mind.

The DSM states those with Gender dysphoria have an unhealthy mind.

A psychologist on this thread started it was unhealthy to support trans women are women for the well-being of those with Gender dysphoria and for natal women.

You've articulated that position very well MsBeaujangles.

Unfortunately, it is the extreme end of the trans ideology that makes it difficult to compromise. Because validation is paramount. So anything that remains exclusionary will be a thorn in the side of validation.

Likewise anything that gives transwomen an extra advantage over women by virtue of their natal sex sets women back.

The conflict is unresolvable.

I believe transwomen are women because “woman” is a societal construct

The idea that woman a social category, rather than a biological one?

Let's say we can do that. Socially, transwoman and women are all called women. The language confers validation.

But the next step, after language, is the needs of the two groups, based on biology. Again.

So let's say we ignore biology. Toilets are desegregated, sport is desegregated, prisons, rape refuges, etc. We all just mingle as one.

So the next step, is how to address the needs of certain people, based on the behaviour of certain other people. Which, not very coincidentally, is also based on biology.

In order for transwomen to be women, you have to ignore biology, the categorisation based on biology, the physical needs of two groups, based on biology, and the inherent power dynamic within those two groups, based on biology.

So let's say you did, indeed, do that.

The gains that women's have made would reverse at breakneck speed and the world would be unrecognisable.

When women are oppressed because of their sex, why should we bend over and metaphorically take it based on people's internal sense of self?
It's not our sense of self that makes us more at risk at the hands of men.
It's not our sense of self that means men will earn more than us.
It's not our sense of self that means we will be hampered by periods (and arguably by childbirth, breastfeeding, child rearing)
It's not our sense of self that means women are expected to be the supporting rather than the supported partner.
It's not bloody sense of self that drives misogyny.
It's sex.

Internal sense of self is a deeply personal, individual thing which, as has been shown on this thread and many others, isn't even a thing that many people can define. You cannot change rules to pander to internal sense of self.

Sophoclesthefox has also nailed it. The trans woman i know lives with her boyfriend, who used to be married to a woman but split up due to her dicovering him having sex with men, and they live a very free and easy live now, similar to that of many gay couples I know. Both work, good disposable income, no children to care for or allow for, can do what they want when they want, holiday when they want. No family obligations (boyfriends older children visit occasionally but were raised by the mother when he was in Thailand for most of their childhood discovering himself). No unwanted pregancies, no pregnancy losses, no PMT, no heavy periods, no being passed over at work due to being a woman and having kids (current workplce wouldnt dare risk being seen to discriminate against the one trans person, but no.similar compunctions when it comes to women onmmaternity leave). These are the experiences that make adult women who they are. Most trans women have either gone straight from the family home to the lifestyle described above in their late teens or early twenties, or have transitioned later in life as priveledged men wbo have had a lifetime of money and power gained by dint of being men. The experiences of being a woman and becoming a transwoman are not the same and they can never be the same.

If a person with a biological female body has an internal sense of self that is male, I differ to their sense of self as true, not their outward appearance
And does this also apply to other characteristics where sense of self is in conflict with material reality? Race? Age? Etc.

Beachcomber, my argument applies equally to men and women who are trans. You are the one determined to shoe horn mysoginy into the argument. It isn't there. This is a philosophical argument on the nature of the self.

I agree Cloud, you really hit the nail on the head. If a transwoman wants to be treated as a real women, than come the disadvantages, its not only about self and how you feel, but biology determining the outcomes.

There's just so little to get to grips with in your position, glitched. It's composed of thought terminating cliches and aphorisms, with a great dollop of unexplored cartesian dualism.

There is always a social dialogue between our beliefs about ourselves and how we are perceived by the world around us. We don't exist in isolation.

A person is their mind.

Not in patriarchal society they aren't.

Glitched in order for your argument to work in any way that isn't outrageous misogyny you would have to first dismantle patriarchal society and built a society in which not a single female human experiences female oppression ever.

Then you can get back to us and argue that a person is their mind and it won't be any skin of my nose (even though I would still disagree with your religious argument about souls, inner identity and a higher force making mistakes in how they package souls).

Beachcomber, my argument applies equally to men and women who are trans. You are the one determined to shoe horn mysoginy into the argument.

So if it's not about misogyny and the power dynamic. Why aren't transmen clamouring to be transferred to men's prisons? Why aren't transmen beating men in sport? Why aren't men worried about transmen eroding their rights?

Do you have any answers Glitched that can ignore the power dynamic? Misogyny cannot flourish without that power dynamic.

Trans women may not be biological women, but they are still women.

So what is 'woman' then, if it's not biology?

A person is their mind.

The oppression of women as a class does it happen because of 'their mind'. It happens solely on the basis of their biology as females.

Is there any way we can keep this particular thread on its original track? I am still looking for explanations - Glitched, is there anything you could suggest I read on this?

Beachcomber, my argument applies equally to men and women who are trans. You are the one determined to shoe horn mysoginy into the argument. It isn't there. This is a philosophical argument on the nature of the self.

This argument does not exist in a vacuum. It exists in the real actual world in which girls and women are oppressed the world over by men. Nothing in real life in society as it currently functions , including trans ideology, applies equally to women and men.

This is also outrageous misogyny on your part. You are arguing from a vacuum that denies 100% that society is patriarchal.

Your argument denies centuries of harm done to girls and women and the current on going fight against that harm.

The only word for this misogyny.

Shoe horn my arse.

Is gender identity a physical or metaphysical property?

@Datun
I think we give too much power away to the TRA extremists if we let them stop us exploring ways forward, independently from the nonsense they are spouting.

The majority of posters on this board appear to be happy with people being gnc and are happy to support gnc people up to the point where woman’s rights and protections are compromised.

I think that we could produce a list of accommodations and a list of non negotiables. I think there will be some outlying views but a solid centre ground here.

I notice a big shift in views about accommodation immediately following the posting of some thing abhorrent done or said by a radical TRA. A lot like sudden shifts in attitude immediately after a terror incident.

I think we should hold on mind the types of gnc people we want to help when considering accommodations and think about people who put women at risk when thinking about non negotiables. So, for example, using preferred pronouns/chosen names as an accommodation, right to sex segregated spaces as a non negotiable.

I do think that the list we could produce and advocate, if we work from this model, is something that would gain widespread support in wider society.

Sorry Bertrand!

Goad They are both clearly men.

That said, I think those that claim they have no internal sense of self or gender/sex are speaking from a position of privilege. Your sense of self aligns with your external body so you don't see a problem.

Perhaps it would help if you listed the criteria for womanhood, and then we can look at it and see if we align or not.

Perhaps it would help if you listed the criteria for womanhood, and then we can look at it and see if we align or not.

Yes, that would be a great start.

Thanks Bertrand. Nothing to recommend specifically. As I've said I'm not a trans apologist and I don't particularly agree with the actions of the movement in many cases. I can see how trans can be problematic as it's basically a philosophical position imposing itself on society.

That said, my answer to the OP question still stands. Trans women are women because it's based on the internal sense of self, not the external self.

Glitched- could you tell me how you came to that conclusion?

How about calling them Male woman? Their sex is male as determined by their chromosomes but they 'feel' like a woman in their brain.

Trans women are women because it's based on the internal sense of self, not the external self.

Women are not oppressed because of their 'internal sense of self'. Womanhood is not a 'feeling' and it's certainly not something you can identify your way in and out of.