“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

I’m not sure if Glitched is asserting that transwomen are woman only in a philosophical sense or that this sense should be translated into practical measures?

Sorry Bertrand. It's really hard to discuss the meaning of woman without the reasoning behind it.

That said, my answer to the OP question still stands. Trans women are women because it's based on the internal sense of self, not the external self.

I used to find this easier to accept. Like I know I'm Datun.

Can someone know they're a woman?

But, as I unwrapped it, it unravelled. Because for each bit of criteria, I can produce a million women who don't have it.

Unless you change the meaning.

@Bertrand

Because i have an internal sense of self that isn't reliant on my body.

Yy re internal sense of self. It is quite amazing how far men will go to make women validate his internal sense of self.
Hugh Hefner clearly had an internal sense of being an irresistibly attractive and seductive man - he created a whole world around himself to validate it, and oppressed a whole lot of women in his desperation to validate his delusional fantasy.

I don't think anyone is entitled to have their internal sense of self validated by others.

Yes, I know. The whole thing makes my head explode and as a lifelong social liberal, it’s very difficult to find myself instinctively on the “wrong side” of the issue. I need to hear how either my “side” is actually right, or that my inctincts are wrong. But when I ask questions the answers don’t make sense to me or I am abused for asking them......Hence the thread.

@maidofstars

Mostly philosophically. I accept women trapped in men's bodies to be women. That said, they still retain a male physical body and are potentially dangerous to other women. There needs to be social restriction. Don't think it should just be a free for all. People can lie, cheat and device others.

I can see how a mis-matched internal sense of self can make someone trans. I cannot see how it makes them the opposite sex.

@Beachcomber - your post reminds me of Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy. I read it years ago, but found its depiction of a future utopian society which had almost completely eradicated gender roles very interesting (contrasted with the misogyny the heroine experiences in her present and in an alternative dystopian future). However, I seem to recall that Piercy’s utopian future also involved women no longer giving birth - I wonder if in reality there could ever be eradication of female oppression where that important difference remains.

Sorry if this is OT, but I just find that novel particularly interesting in the context of (a) a transgender viewpoint that seems to want to ignore biological difference but maintain gender distinctions vs (b) feminism that has now spent decades exploring possibilities other than a patriarchal society (with its gender roles constructed mainly by men) while trying to navigate the real world we are in.

Glitched
Thanks for your response.

Aside from the words being used, is your position not the same as most here - some males feel like women but that doesn’t confer the same rights as bio women?

It's like straight people debating whether gay people exist or not, are suffering from a defect or not and are right or wrong in the way they feel.

It's none of your business to decide that for people.

And I always feel quite disgusted to hear people debating this topic like trans people and their feelings are somehow the property of everyone else.

There are only two genders.

You will never be any gender other than the one you were born as.

Dress as you choose, have parts removed, have parts added on - it will never change the fabric of your being.

Glitched, do you see mind and body as separate things?

It's like straight people debating whether gay people exist or not
Who argues that? I will never understand the thought process that leads to this nonsense.

Do gay people exist? WTF? I mean, there are people in existence, many of whom are gay. Who denies they exist? As in, nope, that person is a figment if my imagination?

@maidofstars

Yes. Reality is what it is. There is no trans detector and therefore we cannot know for certain if someone is truthful or deceitful. Best to be cautious and not erode women's rights just to appease a minority.

At the same time though I think we should welcome transwomen as women where appropriate to health and safety.

And I always feel quite disgusted to hear people debating this topic like trans people and their feelings are somehow the property of everyone else.

Lol. Like the rights and spaces of women and the very definition of women are somehow the property of transwomen, you mean?

@pencils.

A bit of both. The mind is a product of the brain and as such a biological component.

At the same time though I think we should welcome transwomen as women where appropriate to health and safety
Putting the words you’ve used aside, I agree wholeheartedly.

And I always feel quite disgusted to hear people debating this topic like trans people and their feelings are somehow the property of everyone else.

What are your thoughts on people discussing those with cancer, dementia, ASC and diabetes?

Oh hang on, I may have posted in haste. It’s not only on ‘health and safety’ grounds that I might exclude transwomen/non bio women from certain spaces.

“It's none of your business to decide that for people.“

I don’t want to decide anything for anyone. But I also think that if people want to make profound changes in the way society works, they should at least attempt to explain the process that is happening.

What people decide for themselves is absolutely fine and entirely personal. What they decide for society is not.

Glitched, to some of the trans community your proposal is completely unacceptable. They would argue that by having restrictions in place it is clear that you don't view them as real women, and therefore you are transphobic.

@maidofstars

What grounds do you exclude on then?

At the same time though I think we should welcome transwomen as women where appropriate to health and safety

Yet you ignore the well-being of trans women and women, as described by a psychologist on this thread, who stated it is unhealthy to continue with "trans women are women".

@irritating

Yeah i know. I think both sides could be more accommodating.

Because i have an internal sense of self that isn't reliant on my body

I have an internal sense of self too. But I’ve never existed outside my body so I don’t know how the two are interrelated.

I know that one affects the other. When there is someone wrong with the chemicals in my body, my mind is affected . I can think or feel irrrational things.

And I know my sense of self is affected by my socialisation as a woman in the 20th and 21st centuries living in a western democracy.

I can’t say that I would feel the same sense of self if I had been raised as a man in 19th century Papua New Guinea.

I don’t think my sense of self was fixed at birth or in the womb. Or whenever people believe that ‘mix ups’ occur.

And I have no idea if what I feel is the same as Datun and Bernard. We are all women because of our biology and we have the same experiences of oppression because of our sex, not because of our feelings or our internal sense of self.