“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

I am not possessive over 'my" identity as a woman
I’m not either.

I am possessive over my vulva, as a woman, though.

And not only have you not read the thread, you clearly haven’t read any threads on the subject, as evidenced by:
I would love to see the statistics for these supposed sex attacks by transwomen

LaLaHappyHippy

Yes, it would be wonderful wouldn't it if everyone was just human and there were no distinctions based on threat.

But there are. Men commit 98 percent of sexually violent crime. That statistic does not change if they transition. In fact it's slightly higher.

Nearly half of transwomen in prison are sex offenders which is way above the average for men in prison in general.

This question came up very early on in the trans narrative. Women being told the transwomen do not present a threat and that sex attacks never happen.

So much so that data to be collected to prove the opposite.

Here is one such website. There are others.

m.facebook.com/groups/1722756661380462

Missing the point lala (as you probably know) - I'm happy for transwomen to wear all the fake nails, lipstick and dresses that they like, whenever they like - it's not that they're infringing on my identity - it's that their male bodies, which will never have the same needs as my female body, are taking resources that were specifically earmarked for female bodies, despite there being a proliferation of resources for male bodies already

If you want to see assaults by transwomen a quick google will certainly provide you with many examples - as the SJWs are so fond of saying, educate yourself.

The red herring that transwomen are hijacking what it means to be a woman is ridiculous, if you don't live by lazy generalisations or totally incorrect stereotypes.

The whole “I always knew I was a woman because ...” narrative is propped up by rigid, outdated stereotypes of women.

The red herring that transwomen are hijacking what it means to be a woman is ridiculous, if you don't live by lazy generalisations or totally incorrect stereotypes.

I missed this. It's actually the opposite of what you're saying. It is transwomen who are using stereotypes, not women. Women are trying to dismantle those very stereotypes.

Transwomen are saying because they feel, act or dress in a certain way, they must be women. Therefore that behaviour must be women's behaviour.

It rigourously reinforces damaging stereotypes for women.

No woman thinks that the meaning of woman has been hijacked because a transwoman is acting a stereotypical feminine way.

The meaning of the word woman has been hijacked because it no longer means adult human female.

And rights have been hijacked on that basis. Sport, spaces, scholarships, quotas, public posts. All being taken by men, on the basis that woman has no meaning.

The red herring that transwomen are hijacking what it means to be a woman is ridiculous, if you don't live by lazy generalisations or totally incorrect stereotypes.

I missed it to Datun.

Absolutely is a red herring - and one that you're introducing lala - not us!

neat trick.

Is this woman black just because she says she is?

I'm glad that you want us all to be "very realistic about who the biggest threat to women, including transwomen, actually are". It's men.
And funnily enough, we know that and are concerned that self ID will allow any man into sex segregated spaces and women will be the ones 'accused' of hate speech if they protest.
As women cannot distinguish between the transsexual suffering from gender dysphoria (who is unlikely to pose a threat) the autogynephile wanting validation being treated as a woman in order to satisfy their sexual fetish or the dangerous pervert who seeks access to women to abuse / harm them.
That's why the Equality Act allows sex segregated spaces to be legal.

I'm glad you value being kind and thoughtful. Maybe you could have a word with those people so lacking in thought and kindness that they demonstrate no respect or understanding for women and children's safety and repeatedly put that at risk in order to satisfy their own selfish demands for men to access all women's spaces.

We can share spaces with other humans...even if they are not quite the same as us. It's fine.

Why can't transwomen just use men's toilets, changing rooms, prisons then?

I opened this thread with real interest, hoping to read the research people had found.

Is there really none?

My only contribution is the David Reimer case. He was one of a pair of male twins in the 60s and when he and his brother had some surgery on their penises to help them pee better as babies, the doctor almost totally burnt his off. His parents were advised to raise him as a girl and go through with an operation to remove his testicles and start him on hormonal medication.

By age about 8 he was starting to get really upset, knowing something was wrong with him but not really understanding what. His dad eventually told him and he eventually went back to being a boy and had a mastectomy etc and got married.

His twin died of an overdose and he ended up committing suicide. It was made into a book.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Anyway, the point this shows us is in that situation the boy’s physiology overruled the environmental / societal gender that he had been assigned. Everyone treated him as a girl and all the aspects of his life that would identify him as a female were in place, but he never felt like one (and physiologically he wasn’t).

They forced Reimer and his twin brother to simulate sex, with David beneath or on all fours!?! They enforced strict femininity on him. He knew he was biologically different to females; to say he could have lived life as a female were gender identity wholly learned is obtuse. He never menstruated, he had Male physiology The whole thing was a psychological fuck up , from abusive doctors to ignorant parents.

And perhaps a lesson about the futility of transition for some.

The David Reimer case always gets a mention on threads on this topic. What he went through was horrific and he and his twin were abused by the doctor in charge of their development. I don't think it's a case that can tell us anything useful about sex and gender roles given how horribly they were treated.

Do you have any cases you could share?

Do you have any cases you could share?
I don’t. I’ve never really bothered looking into the basic research on gender identity being learned or innate, because I don’t really care either way. It’s the same with the science surrounding homosexuality. Makes no difference to me whether or why someone is feminine/masculine/other or straight/gay/other and I’m not overly comfortable with attempting to find genes/environmental factors that may cause either - I think it offers ammunition to those who would seek to ‘correct’ biological ‘defects’.

I’m a scientist. I’ve spent the last ten minutes with a cup of coffee trying to compose an experiment that would expose the innate or learned nature of gender (ignoring for a moment the ethics of psychologically experimenting on humans).

I’ve got as far as twins and desert islands and human beings being isolated from any gendered societal constructs...

I’ve got as far as twins and desert islands and human beings being isolated from any gendered societal constructs...

Well exactly.

Identical twins does disprove innate gender identity, though. If one twin has it and the other doesn't.

Any characteristic could be innate to a particular person, just not a demonstration of the sex of that person. You can't say a characteristic is gendered, when I can find you just as many people of that gender (sex) who don't have it.

No woman thinks that the meaning of woman has been hijacked because a transwoman is acting a stereotypical feminine way.

The meaning of the word woman has been hijacked because it no longer means adult human female.

This.

Identical twins does disprove innate gender identity, though. If one twin has it and the other doesn't.

That's not right - unless you think the same applies to sexuality?

splendide

I've no idea what causes sexuality.

But transactivists will tell you that transgenderism is caused by hormonal washes in the womb, or a genetic blip in the brain.

Which is disproved by identical twins.

splendide

You've got me thinking now. So I have done a quick google. Which has resulted in studies of epigenetics?

That the genome can be influenced after birth?

Maybe there is something of that in transgenderism.

Which, frankly, might be good news. If there was a test for transgenderism, you could weed out all the fakers and fetishists.

I would love to see the statistics for these supposed sex attacks by transwomen

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Re David Reimer, he was 2 years old when he was suddenly switched to being treated differently to his twin brother. He was then subjected to terrible treatment by John Money. I don’t think this case illustrates the gender identity is innate and distinct from knowledge of one’s sex.

Identical twins does disprove innate gender identity, though. If one twin has it and the other doesn't.

I don't know much about this in relation to transgenderism but if it's the same as mental / physical health then the physiological aspects can predispose someone to something but it needs an environmental trigger, so there could still be a part physiological cause that's switched on for one twin but not another as a result of different experiences.

WeAreGerbil

I don't think anyone disputes that gender dysphoria comes from somewhere. And is a real and sometimes crippling condition.

What it isn't is a female brain in a male body.

And, just take it to its conclusion, even if it was, we still segregate based on sex, not brains.

Furthermore, transwomen retain male pattern violence and are over represented in sex offender prison inmates.

So whatever their brain is telling them, it doesn't stop them behaving in the same way as any other man.

I'm not arguing for all the rest of it, I hate it all, I was just addressing the twin studies aspect.

Sorry, the thread has got so long. I can't reply to individuals, but further up in this thread a poster did actually use life experiences such as " menustration,childbirth,etc" as being hallmarks of what it means to be a woman, and that transwomen can never experience them...but these narrow, stereotypical thoughts exclude 'cis' women anyway...if we don't menustrate or experience child birth, does that mean we aren't women either, by such definitions?

And apologies, but Facebook a hate group and a well known example of horrendous child abuse in the Reiner case, do not make discrimination on appearance or presentation ethical . I guarantee those who discriminate against transwomen have already shared facilities with them, and have not even been aware of it. That is why it is impossible to enforce ' segregated bathrooms'. Are people who don't appear to be obviously female or male to display their genitals ( genitals could show female, male or intersex, so no 'proof' there). Is there a scanner that can quickly display a person's chromosomal make up and filter them into the 'right' bathroom, for those that so firmly believe chromosomes are the be all and end all? Molecular science is still in its' infancy...genome and chromosome research into certain conditions eg Huntingtons Disease is revealing chromosomal aberrations not previously thought of...we do not know enough about chromosomes to be judge and jury on the human species...the nore we discover, we realise the less we know...easily found literature can be found at www.nature.com/subjects/chromosomes for example...

Throughout history there has been fear based discrimination...fear of differences...putting those who are different in a 'dangerous' category...it sickens me to point it out but that's how racism and apartheid developed and prevailed. Then it was homophobia. Now it's transphobia. Through it all is misogyny, so if we want equal treatment for women, that really should include all women. Women were /are seen as 'inferior/weak/pathetic/sexual objects by the worst extreme misogynists...we know what it's like to face demeaning, traumatic discrimination and bigotry...I won't do that to another person, just because it's happened to me. Bigotry towards and exclusion of any group of people is illegal and discriminatory in my country, and many other more progressive countries.

When, in some other supposedly progressive countries, women are prevented from accessing contraception, abortion, equal pay etc , the cis men in suits are much more of a threat to women than transwomen quietly trying to live their lives and occasionally going to a public bathroom.

I have looked for firm evidence of women being sexually assaulted by transwomen in public bathrooms. If anyone can provide such evidence, please share the link. As there is no such reliable evidence to be found.

Women's safety is definitely an issue. But using 'our'( I obviously include transwomen in this) safety as a vehicle for transphobia at worst, bigotry and discrimination at best, is disturbing.

In answer to the, much laboured, original question...yes I do consider transwomen as women, literally...I do not have any problem in accepting people who are different to me , in any way..I accept them as they represent, it wouldn't cross my mind not to.

That post has pretty much every misconception and misunderstanding about the issues that there is.