“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

LaLa-please can you move away fro bathrooms-an issue which could easily be solved by the simple expedient of throwing money at it, and consider the following questions. What do you think about the impact on crime statistics of self identification? What do you think about the impact on women's sport of self identification? What do you think about the rights of vulnerable natal women -gay or straight - to receive intimate care from a female bodied person? What do you think of the impact of self identification on schemes intended to address the under representation of women in particular fields?

Lala i agree with you. I imagine you won’t last long here though. Thank you for posting.

WeAreGerbil

No I know, sorry! I was just musing.

LaLaHappyHippy

You really can't expect anyone to take you seriously when you ask for evidence, are shown evidence, and then dismiss it as a hate group. A hate group? It literally records the crimes of people identifying as trans. It discourages and closes comments, so that the facts speak for themselves.

Here's another one, if you don't like that one.

transcrimeuk.com/

There have been more murders by trans people in this country, then there have trans people been murdered.

Transwomen retain male pattern criminality.

That's not an opinion.

If you can't address facts, then you must agree it is a belief system, nothing more.

Lalalalala won't respond to individual posters as she probably realises they will unpick her argument in matter of seconds so it's a waste of your time.

Throughout history there has been fear based discrimination...fear of differences...putting those who are different in a 'dangerous' category...it sickens me to point it out but that's how racism and apartheid developed and prevailed. Then it was homophobia. Now it's transphobia. Through it all is misogyny, so if we want equal treatment for women, that really should include all women.

Have you got another definition of woman other than 'adult female human' then? Excellent, please share.

LaLa - In answer to the, much laboured, original question...yes I do consider transwomen as women, literally...I do not have any problem in accepting people who are different to me , in any way..I accept them as they represent, it wouldn't cross my mind not to.

So in answer to Bertrand's question, you think that transwomen are actually literally women but there is no reasoning behind that thought?

lala i feel you are a little lala

i think it was me that mentioned menstruation/childbirth/menopause - yes these are hallmarks of being of the female sex/being a woman - as well most /girlswomen menstruate apart from those with specific medical conditions and most women have the biology to have a child whether they choose too or not is a different matter but you contradict yourself in your last post a iittle when you mention women being prevented from accessing contraception and abortion would that also mean transwomen by any chance !!
Also i think you are missing the point regarding transwomen in bathrooms - its men we dont wont in our shared spaces or being our rape crisis counsellor, or giving measuring us up in M&S for a bra - and that is why we are angry - and a man is at the very least someone with a penis and testosterone

I hope this goes ahead -

www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1AJ0F0

I wonder why there aren’t billionaire Trans people throwing money at this ? 🙄

Interesting, Bela. Not surprisingly it's making some transactivists nervous.

Lala, why on earth are you linking to a random Nature page about chromosomes?

Maybe she can't find the link to the clownfish and strawberries Advanced Biology so she's giving us this to be going on with.

But it's currently showing results for Leishmania, wild lizard populations and bacterial scaffold structures.

It's not an obvious source of information on the difference in male versus female risk of violence and sexual assault in humans.

If we're lobbing RandomScience into the mix, here is a Nature page (news, not original research, mind) on actual sex differences in responses to infection, including discussion of a study to be set up on whether that changes after sex-change surgery. I wonder if they ever carried out the study .

That's the sort of research that needs a clear statement of actual birth sex, cross-hormone treatment and surgery for any valid comparison to be made. Asking for the patient's 'gender' will give unscientific results and possibly poorer outcomes further down the line.

Believing that 'transwomen are literally women' seems not just wrong and impossible but harmful all round.

I read a lot of medical literature and confusion of ‘sex’ with ‘gender’ infuriates me.

Males and females can have different prognoses after a medical event and can respond in qualitatively different ways to pharmaceutical intervention. We cannot allow health care for either males or females to be put at risk by any confusion here.

I have asked my university hospital trust for their policy on distinguishing sex from self-reported gender in the design of clinical trials. No response.

My male on the inside of this process husband tells me that there is no way he can discriminate between sex and identified gender on most of his records.

Potentially outing but fuck it.
I have also written to a leading medical journal to caution about careless use of ‘gender’ instead of ‘sex’ and for publishing articles that reference ‘cis women’ when gender identity is wholly irrelevant to the study. No response.

Maid, I read 'my male on the inside' at first as being your Inner Gender Identity. Oops.

Nah, it won't be outing. I've done the same for more than one publisher myself.

BelaLugosisShed

That's an interesting study. I wonder how they choose their pool to study? Because the two types of transwomen will give very different results.

However, I would be willing to bet that AGP individuals would not volunteer.

I met a parent today who told their child that they were not misgendering her because pronouns refer to sex and not gender. They said that they supported their child’s gender expression and would use their new chosen name but it was ‘bloody ridiculous’ to use biologically incorrect pronouns because their sex is an immutable fact and not open to being changed.

And apologies, but Facebook a hate group and a well known example of horrendous child abuse in the Reiner case, do not make discrimination on appearance or presentation ethical .

No one here agrees with discrimination based on appearance or presentation - quite the opposite in fact. If you have a read of any threads discussing the issue most people are all for gender non-conforming presentation.

It's just that presentation doesn't alter your biology.

I think it important to keep in mind that just because women do not call men on their public behavior most of the time does not mean women do not notice it.
The assumption, by most men, that failure to object is acquiescence is incorrect and leads to conflict.

I have no problem with people born male wishing to be treated as women in most situations. But we can't ignore the fact of their male DNA. No amount of surgery or medication can change this. I really feel for people who overwhelmingly feel the need to change their outer appearance through surgery and drugs. But are they women? No they not. They are Transwomen, which is not the same thing at all.

Another problem is that many 'transwomen' are still fully male physically. Many are older with limited experience of living as women. Indeed there is a wide range of different levels of 'trans'. Should we call ALL of these people women? Of course not.

failure to object is acquiescence

-- see also consent and sexual abuse, where failure to object strenuously enough (or failure to be conscious at the time) is also taken as acquiescence.

Objecting strenuously, on the other hand, is 'being a humourless po-faced frigid harpy'.

I have no problem with people born male wishing to be treated as women in most situations
Like ‘living like a woman’, I have no idea what this means?

As far as I can see, it means ‘called she’ and allowed to use the ladies, Maid.
Apart from that, no idea on anything that would include both me and a trans woman, but not some other random male human.

I am trans, I am biologically female, and therefore I am a female who suffers from gender dysphoria, I try to present in a more masculine way as it makes me more comfortable on a day to day basis, but I am female. I have a vagina, I have XX chromosomes and that will always make me female, I don't need anyone to pretend anything else.

I honestly don't think there is a good argument on the other side, unless you take feelings as fact which is a slippery slope into anti-science, and that just isn't a beneficial thing in any way.