“Transwomen are women”

[BertrandRussell]

There are plenty of angsty threads on this topic, but please can this one not be.

Please can someone who thinks that transwomen are actually, literally women tell me the reasoning behind the thought? If you have come to this conclusion because you have read scientific research, please could you link to it.

I will only respond with “Thank you” or to give you clarification if you ask for it,and please will anyone else interested do the same.

@Glitched

In what way is this person a woman?

The sky is blue, but the sky is gold in my fantasy world and you had better agree or I will call you names!

“You keep pushing gender stereotypes. Why?”

Well, I find myself talking about gender stereotypes because the discourse about trans issues seems to be steeped in them. That’s one of the reasons I started the thread. I don’t define my children as girls and boys by the clothes they wear or the toys they play with, or myself by heels or make up. But transpeople often seem to define themselves that way. I was trying to move beyond that......

The idea that "woman" is a social construct comes from postmodernist unpacking of the misogyny of femininity.

The word woman is used to mean 2 different things;

a) adult human female

b) the sex role imposed on adult human females by male supremacist society

Of course b is a social construct. Trans ideology argues that women only exist as the social construct in b. Feminism argues that b is a misogynistic idea imposed on women (gender) and that women exist in their own right as adult human females.

Trans ideology insists that women do not exist outwith the social construct imposed on them by men. Nice.

Or this person @Glitched?

Trans women may not be biological women, but they are still women
OK.

How can we protect the safety, privacy and dignity of biological women?

How can we label ourselves appropriately?

I agree. Being trans isn't about gender stereotypes or femininity.

@goad

I don't know who that is?

You keep pushing gender stereotypes. Why?

See, that's what I think you're doing, actually.

I'm pointing out that they're harmful. I think you're pointing out that they're innate.

By move on, I mean find ways to meet the needs/interests/wants of women and trans women (although other gnc people have needs too, this forum mostly focuses on W and TW).

The interests of many feminists on this board are, for example, having some spaces and services that are sex segregated (not gender segregated) and sporting competition being divided by natal sex. These interests relate to safety and equal playing fields.

In relation to this trans activist’s interests include removing sex segregation and replacing it with gender identity segregation. This interest lays in validating gender identity and limiting exclusion.

Here, discussion can move on to exploring how, as far as possible, we can provide sex segregation whilst also, where possible, validating gender identity and limiting exclusion.

Why should natal women, gender n o n conforming women, trans men and children be forced to agree to delusions such as trans women are women, how can things move on when this gaslighting and coercion continues?

There won’t be a magic solution, and some won’t even want to come to the negotiating table, but I think a focus on interests rather than positions would enhance the discussion

*cloudperson

Trans women are just that: trans women.
This is a perfectly valid and valuable thing to be.
But they are not biological women.

This.
I resent being made out to be a nasty, intolerant bigot because I won't play along with the make believe*

your position is exactly mine

For clarity, I reiterate: I’m trying to get beyond ‘labels’. For the purposes of this specific thread, I am going with whatever labels the ‘opposition’ chooses.

Glitched To go back to the OP, you believe transwomen are ‘literally women’ but not ‘literally biological women’?

Beachcomber has it upthread:
What this all comes down to is an ideological notion that men get to define women according to whatever they want and that that definition can be changed by men according to whatever they want at any time. Women do not exist outwith this definition. Women are not human in their own right And the rest of it.

People who say that 'transwomen are women' are in my opinion no different to the sadly growing group of flat earthers:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_flat_Earth_societies

@Glitched

The person in the first picture sporting the big bushy beard is Danielle Muscato and the person in the second picture is Riley Dennis. They are both outspoken self declared transwomen. Danielle Muscato even lived in a woman's shelter for a while.

So if transwomen are women then in what is it that makes Danielle and Riley both women?

Trans women may not be biological women, but they are still women.

Another statement void of any meaning whatsoever. There is no way to be a woman other than as a biological female.

Unless you agree with the idea that girls and women only exist according to the male supremacist definition of them (a definition which varies through time and culture). See my post above about women only existing as a male defined social construct.

This is the erasure of girls and women. The misogyny here is very very disturbing.

You are saying that the thoughts in one man's head count for more than the existence of millions of girls and women.

Listen to yourself.

Beachcomber - you've nailed it.

Trans ideology insists that women do not exist outwith the social construct imposed on them by men

The gynephobia is baked right in.

I read that Freddy Flintoff believes in a flat earth. I am so sad for him and the basketball player, they play with a ball for a living and they struggle to understand gravity and angles.

I think a lot of the problem arises because we confuse 'sex' with 'gender'. While gender is now accepted as a societal construct, it is originally derived from one's sex.

So sex = female and male (fixed binary biology)
gender = woman and man (fluid and varied)

Up until recently, female = woman and male = man. For the vast majority of us, this is still the case.

Transgenderism argues that you can now choose your gender according to how you 'feel' inside. Which is fine, if rather confusing for most of us. The problem arises because males who wish to be known as women, have neither the same 'sex' experiences as females e.g. female puberty, periods, childbirth, lower athletic abilities, poorer musculature, shorter stature, less aggression etc. nor the same gender experiences e.g. being judged by appearance, greater clothing choice, higher caring expectations, lower pay, etc.

This is a gross generalisation, as there is a wide variety between both sex difference and gender. But the sex differences hasn't changed all that much. The problem arises because the role of women in society HAS changed and is highly varied across different cultures. For example, I don't know of any transwomen who would want the role of a women in a society where women are highly restricted in what they can do or look like.

The truth is that, at least currently, you cannot change your sex. You can ask to be treated as the opposite gender, but you cannot become the other sex. That would be like asking to become an Elephant or a Penguin. You could look like one, at least in part, but you cannot become one.

@thefox

I am not pushing gender stereotypes. My whole argument is based on the internal sense of self. This is in no way linked to cultural expressions of gender.

Thank you Beachcomber, wonderfully clear posts!

Glitched
Genuine question here, as you seem like you know lots about it. Apologies for what will be a very clumsily worded question.

What other characteristics can be determined or defined within ones sense of self? You say gender is one. Others?

Im being asked lots of similar questions.

If a person with a biological female body has an internal sense of self that is male, I differ to their sense of self as true, not their outward appearance.

A person is their mind.

Woman is not a costume sad men can don at will.

Please, the only way that that man is a woman, is it he were a transman, meaning being born biologically Female. Some transmen look exactly like that.

Trans women may not be biological women, but they are still women.

I am struggling, what is the difference between a 'biological woman' and a 'woman'?